You Can't Help Anyone If Your Cup Is Empty with Annabelle Botea

[0:00] When the body says no on a Friday night

Annabelle Botea: So basically I started building my own company, but obviously that didn't happen overnight. So I did spend a few months trying to figure out, okay, what do I want to do next? And it was actually a very difficult question to answer because I had never stopped and I had never asked myself, what is it that I want to do? I was very good at telling you what everyone expects of me, that I could make a PowerPoint and pitch you in three minutes, okay, this is what I need to do, this is where I need to go. But I couldn't answer you, okay, what is it that me, I wanna do.

Dan Korus: Yeah. I really appreciate that summation. I think you're being very humble with yourself because if I'm not mistaken, you went to Sciences Po University in Paris. So that's a very prestigious university. And then you went on to be an advisor in the Romanian parliament, pushing for institutional depoliticalization. You worked as a policy officer for [previous employer], working with pandemic treaties and universal health coverage on a global scale. So what I want to know is what was the exact moment or period where you realized your biological reality of the burnout you were starting to experience was actively rejecting this ambitious career that you had set up.

Annabelle Botea: I think it built up over several months, but I can remember vividly a moment. It was on a Friday night around six PM and my manager came in rushing into my office asking me to clean some data over Excel. And it had to be done by Monday morning. So I either had to finish everything on a Friday night or spend the weekend working overtime. Obviously I wasn't paid for my overtime, but anyway. And I remember just freezing and I think I just started crying because of the exhaustion and the frustration of feeling stuck and feeling trapped into something that first of all I didn't enjoy doing because I don't like working with Excel and yet I had to do that. And second of all, this absurd pressure. It was obviously a problem of management because you shouldn't ask of your employees to work on a Friday night at six PM. But I remember feeling so tired and exhausted. And I remember commuting back home and thinking to myself, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? And why do I keep doing this to myself? And what's the point? I mean, obviously I wasn't happy in what I was doing. I didn't feel like I was using my skills in the most optimal way. And it just didn't resonate. So that's when this friction started to appear in my body. Obviously, as I said, it's not something that appeared overnight. Before, I think I was drinking around four coffees per day just to get through my day, popping like eating medicine almost as if it was candy, for headaches or stomach aches. So my body was trying to send me signals before that, but I was choosing to ignore it because I was choosing to push myself and keep going because that's what a good employee is supposed to do.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Can I ask a question about that? So some of the work that you were doing was on drug policy at the UN level, right? And so you were forced to deal with human health from a massive top-down perspective on this global scale, negotiating multilateral treaties, dealing with state bureaucracies, looking at global statistics. What I want to know is how did dealing with health on such a massive, abstract scale impact your relationship with your own personal somatic health?

Annabelle Botea: That's an interesting question. Well, the episode I was describing, that was when I was working in [previous industry]. And later on indeed, you are right, I worked in the global health field for [previous employer] that was doing advocacy at the UN level, so multilateral stakeholders. And we did work on what is called drug policy. So as you mentioned, we did have to look at this macro level of how to improve access to health to vulnerable populations. And there is this quote that I heard somewhere, or I think someone told me, which was that you can't help people if your own cup is empty. And that's something that kind of stuck with me because I felt like I was this little hamster running in a wheel trying to get the reports done on time and trying to get the bureaucracy working and all the reports sent and managing different stakeholders. But I didn't really feel like I was having a real impact, me personally. And also because as you mentioned, my health, my personal health was declining. And yet I was trying to help people who are facing health issues. So it seemed a bit contradictory and I thought that okay, maybe it would be better to actually get better me in the first place before trying to help other people who are facing very difficult circumstances. So I think to answer your question, it was a contradictory position I was in. And it didn't feel very nice because I felt like someone who's not in a good position to try to help people if I'm not able to help myself in the first place.

[7:00] Running small experiments on your own life

Dan Korus: Yeah. I love that quote. You can't help other people if your cup is empty. And I think that's so true, and something that we want to teach a lot. And so I think that lays the groundwork for where you went next pretty well, and I appreciate all your answers. What I wanna know now is you said that you started to lay the groundwork to escape, right? And you started to make these moves and prioritizing different jobs that took better use of your skills and allowed you to apply yourself in healthier ways. What sort of things were you prioritizing? What sort of jobs were you looking for? What was your first thing where you were like, okay, I need to make sure that I have this?

Annabelle Botea: Well obviously, shifting industries, because there are some industries that will require you to work twelve hours per day and some industries where legally you have a contract that tells you okay, you work from nine to five and that's it. So I started looking for positions in industries where I felt like I would have a bit more time for myself. I wouldn't be under constant pressure to keep producing and always perform. So that's how I shifted to the NGO world. And I also looked for industries where I could reapply my skills because I had to be pragmatic. I still needed an income, I still had bills to pay, so it's not like I could afford to stop working from one day to the other. So that's how I first did that shift. And later on, when I was working already, I started taking it very seriously. Okay, how can I build a life I don't need to escape from in the future? And it took a lot of introspection work, a lot of journaling with myself. It sounds a bit cliche, but this is the reality of what helped me get clear on what I want for myself, and experimenting. Because I didn't know exactly where I wanted to go, so I ran like very small experiments where I allowed myself, okay, I'm gonna test this for one month and I'm gonna collect data. Did I enjoy it? Did it bring me energy? Is it something I can monetize? Is it something I can scale? Can I do this on the longer term? So I had like a whole framework I applied on these different experiments I was running. And even nowadays I still experiment. It's an ongoing process. It's not like I'm going to make a calculation like A plus B and I'm gonna find C tomorrow. It's an ongoing process because obviously I'm still learning what I'm good at, what I can earn money for, what I don't enjoy. And there's a very tricky thing here because you can be very good at something but not enjoy doing it. And that's something I really had to distance myself from, and accept that okay, I can be a beginner in something, but learn how to become good at whatever it is I want to do.

Dan Korus: Yeah. So if someone came to you and they said, Annabelle, I want help figuring out what I can do that will serve me in the long run, and you said there's a list of the things that you're looking for. You're like, okay, am I good at this? Is it something I enjoy doing? Is it something that brings me energy? Is it something that I can monetize? Which is another really critical question to ask, 'cause I think there's a lot of things that I would be doing out there that wouldn't make me much money but that would be fun.

Annabelle Botea: I mean, yeah, if it's a hobby it's okay, but if you need the finances, yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. We have to put pizza in the fridge somehow. So what I wanna know is tell us a little bit more about that process for you. What were you finding that you're good at and you like doing but it doesn't monetize, or things that you're good at that don't bring you energy, or maybe things that bring you a lot of energy that maybe you realize I wanna become better at this skill. Talk us through some of the things that you experimented with, 'cause I think your thought process will help a lot of people out there who wanna prioritize themselves and their health the way you have.

Annabelle Botea: Yeah, so basically I took my resume and I looked at all the past experiences I had, where I had worked at, what were my tasks and what were the skills I was using to do my job. And I started making a list of hard skills, soft skills. So for instance, when I was working in [previous industry], I worked a lot on Excel, as I mentioned. I was not very good at working at Excel, but it was something I could get done somehow. And I realized that okay, this is not something I want to do in the future, because I had my experiences that were not so pleasant using Excel. So I was like, okay, if I can avoid it or if I can automize it somehow using AI or whatever, cool, I'm gonna do that. So I started from like my experience. And it was very like a boring exercise just writing on a paper a list, what I like, what I don't like. So this is a first example of something that like I kind of had the skill but I didn't wanna keep doing it in the future. Then I realized that okay, I enjoy all creative activities. But this is not something I can necessarily monetize tomorrow. Like if I like painting, if I like writing poems, okay, that's great. But it's gonna stay more of a hobby right now. And then I started noticing that okay, I do have some communication skills, so how can I use that? I do like writing, okay, how can I use that? So basically that's how I started my Substack at the beginning of the year, because it's something I genuinely enjoy doing and it's something that I know in a few years I could potentially monetize. And it's also helping me build my personal brand, which is good for visibility, for business, and so on. And yeah, these are some of the things I thought about. I would also recommend maybe talking to a career coach, someone who can guide you into this process, because it's sometimes difficult to do all of this on your own. It's good to have like a mirror who can reflect some of the things that you're thinking and redirect if you're getting lost in your own thought process. So yeah.

[15:00] Self-care as another performance review

Dan Korus: That's great. I like that a lot. I'm wondering what I would have on that list 'cause I don't think I've done that activity. That's okay though.

Annabelle Botea: Yeah, I mean yeah, it came out of necessity for me. So if yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. I think that would be a really wise thing for me to do, especially because we're both in this era of self reflection and building. I think that's a really good tip and a thing that people can do. And I wanna bring up something that you had in one of your articles. So you talk about, it was a recent podcast, and you titled Self Care Was Just Another Performance Review. And you talked about how high achievers accidentally turn their healing and their yoga and their rest into just another metric to be optimized.

Annabelle Botea: Mm-hmm.

Dan Korus: So what I want to know is, when we're doing this homework of figuring out, okay, and we're running these experiments on ourselves about what we can do to build a life that's both meaningful and not self-destructive or self-abrading, how do we go about self-care in a way that breaks the cycle to find actual rest?

Annabelle Botea: That's a difficult question. Obviously I wrote a piece on this because I really wanted to dive deep into the topic and it was one of my first collaborations on Substack as well with a writer called T D D. We both noticed that so we had a similar experience, we both went through burnout and to recover we both thought that we had to do more. So she explained for instance that she had an Excel spreadsheet where she was tracking everything, when she was waking up, what type of exercise she was doing and like all the data. She was wearing an Oura ring to get even more data and track all of that. For me, it happened by reading all of the self help books available because I thought that the more information I have intellectually, the more I will be able to repair myself and then quickly go back to work. And boy was I wrong. But anyway, I was trying to intellectualize all that was happening inside of me and also all of my feelings and all of that. And it just backfired in the sense that I was self sabotaging because I was just running away as fast as I could from feeling uncomfortable emotions, like the disappointment, the anger, the grief, of realizing that you built the perfect life very well but it's not working for you. So, a lot of uncomfortable emotions. And it's something we discussed because we also have this feeling that currently the wellness industry tries to always sell you something. So basically the worse you feel about yourself, the more likely it is that you will buy a one week of breathwork package, or I don't know, those type of miracle solutions that are sold as, you will be fixed overnight. And both of us made a bit of like this criticism that we don't believe in shortcuts. And recovery and healing take time. It's uncomfortable. It's a process. And I really enjoyed the image my co-author used, which was you can take two steps forward, one step back, and it kind of becomes like a dance. You need to know how to move in this process to grow and to learn, okay, who is behind all of these optimization techniques and strategies and performance obsessions. So yeah, I hope I answered your question on this one.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah, you did. I think the answer is that it takes time and it takes intentionality and there's no quick fix, no amount of money that can buy the time away from you. And just because you have more information on self care and relaxation, doesn't mean that you can recover faster. I think there's a set time to it. That's very like a Maslach and Leiter view of burnout where they view it as an equation, right? And your recovery has to be able to compensate for your demand. And especially when you're losing control of your work environment, it becomes prohibitively difficult to be able to recover in these cycles. And so you start diminishing and becoming a shell. So I think that's particularly hard, especially in the digital age with all the social media that exists around us. And I think Substack is kind of a beautiful place where we can have our ideas challenged and we can find a really beautiful community, an international community of like-minded people we met on Substack. And I'm very grateful for that.

[22:30] Ruthless curation of the digital diet

Dan Korus: And so what I want to know is you're a very fierce defender of digital boundaries. And you said that you deleted Twitter because it was a negative space that felt like a weight on your chest. And I also remember a Substack note that you posted that you won't accept any party poopers in your Substack comment section. So you're someone who deeply understands your nervous system. I wanna know, tell us how critical is the ruthless curation of our digital diets to our own biological peace.

Annabelle Botea: Oof, another interesting question. I think it comes down to as you said, knowing how much you can tolerate. And to me it has become also a form of self respect because if I start absorbing all of the content that's online from every platform, from everyone, it's just too overwhelming. And nowadays everything is becoming so fast and so digitalized that if I don't set these very clear boundaries, I feel like I just get absorbed into this virtual world. And it's not something I want to allow for myself. And don't get me wrong, it's something that's very difficult to do because obviously all these platforms are built for you to keep your attention on them. So it's not always easy. But it's something I'm definitely very protective of, especially my space. And you remember correctly my note about how I don't tolerate party poopers anymore, because I'm gonna give you an example. I was describing my experience as a first-time founder and how much I was enjoying this process of working on let's say marketing one day, sales the other one. Content creation, basically experimenting a lot of different topics. And someone who I didn't know came out of the blue and replied something like, yeah, but this will pass once you get overwhelmed with everything you have to do, and you will lose the fun of it. And my first reaction was like, what a party pooper. And I just started laughing nervously because I was like, why? Like how much frustration do you carry in yourself to have to go reply to an innocent note in that style? And that's basically how I decided, okay, no, I need to set boundaries because first of all I don't want to allow party poopers in my space. And second of all, it's about me having fun. If I don't have fun doing the thing that I'm doing, then what's the point? I want to be able to enjoy my online expression, my writing and the creative process without having to think that I'm gonna have Pedro from the other side of the world who's gonna come and be like, no, but you'll see, later you will lose the fun.

Dan Korus: So did you block them?

Annabelle Botea: No, I don't block. Actually I set a rule on my Substack. I don't know if you noticed that, but you can have a rule that whenever someone wants to reply, they get a note from you setting how they're supposed to reply. So I'm writing that, be kind, respectful and respect this online space because there's a human being behind the screen who's receiving your words.

Dan Korus: I think that's so easy to forget, right? The human being behind the screen. It's very easy for us to just be completely awful online, and especially as we become more and more digital in the future, that's not gonna be sustainable. And Substack is a really nice place where there aren't that many of those people, or if they're there, the algorithm does a very good job of keeping most of, if not all, maybe except for Pedro, out of our comment section. I don't know if their name's Pedro or not, but that'd be funny.

Annabelle Botea: Yeah, random dude from wherever he's based. No, I think you're right. Substack is still a great place for that and it still feels protected, yeah.

[30:00] Intuition as competitive advantage

Dan Korus: Yeah, it's nice. It's got a very good energy to it. So what I wanna know is you wrote a really beautiful piece, Can You Hear the Forest Song? And I think it's one of your highly acclaimed pieces on Substack. And you wrote about intuition, the dynamics between masculine and feminine energies, our severed connection to mother nature. And so in this professional world that we live in, where you know, we easily lose ourselves in data and in metrics and in spreadsheets that track our yoga and meditation and breathing exercises, right? How do you think we begin to turn back to the intuitive and the natural frequencies that maybe we've lost along the way without losing our footing in the present?

Annabelle Botea: Yeah, thank you for mentioning that piece. It was one of my first articles I posted on Substack and I was still trying to find my voice and my writing style on the platform. So thank you for highlighting that one. It's definitely not easy because I feel like nowadays everything is optimized or we're always encouraged to perform and produce outputs all the time. It's as if our value was based on how much we can achieve. And in the process we forget that we're human beings, we're not robots, we're not machines. And we have the right to rest, for instance, without feeling guilty. That's something, coming back to the burnout that I had to learn because I felt like, okay, if I'm resting, I'm not doing anything, I'm not being productive. So I'm not allowed to do that, I'm supposed to be doing something all the time. And regarding the feminine and masculine, I think that actually using your intuition can be a competitive advantage nowadays. And I think the same about emotional intelligence and also like communication. I don't think it's only a soft skill, I think it's definitely like a competitive advantage. And I can give you an example because last week I listened to like fifteen of the best pitches of the startups where my startup is being incubated at the moment. And all of them obviously talked about AI and optimization and how to improve something and execution. And to be honest with you, the one pitch that I still remember now is the one that gave me goosebumps. Because it told a story. It was deeply personal to the founder. And it was basically so, it made so much sense that I still remember it now. And that's why I think reconnecting to your intuition, to being more grounded in yourself is not only like a woo-woo thing, it can actually help you navigate this very competitive and masculine environment in a very grounded way. At least that's how I view it, that's how I'm experiencing it. And I'm going to defend this as long as I can speak and breathe because I think it's something we need to remember and it's something we need to get back to. 'Cause we're not just, as I said, machines that produce and are in this masculine energy all the time.

Dan Korus: Yeah. And I'm one of those people who definitely feels tied to my production in terms of my self-worth, right? And that's something that I always struggle with and will be a personal journey of mine. And so for people like me who feel anxiety when we feel like we're falling behind, how would you recommend we try and quiet that anxiety? And how do you be intentional about retreating to recover and rest? How do you do your, as you call it, your soft sundays?

Annabelle Botea: Yeah, it's I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not easy. It took me a lot of practice and I still fall into it, myself sometimes. I still notice that I have this inner voice that's telling me like, you haven't done this today, or you haven't done enough of that, or the to do list is not done, so what are you doing? Resting again. But well, first of all, that critical voice I gave it a name. She's called Brenda. And whenever Brenda shows up, I tell her to go for a walk. So I'm having like this inner conversation with myself where I'm like, okay, no, this is like an internalized critical voice that is telling me that I need to be more productive in order to be valuable. And again, it's something that's quite difficult to do because everything around us tells us that we need to do something in order to be valuable. And I don't know about you, but this is also how I grew up. It was something that was very embedded in like my family. You know, you need to work, to be someone, to have a social status, and it was something that was very important. So to get back to this state of okay, let's not let anxiety overtake my state right now. I have like this internal conversation where I'm like, okay, and if I don't do this, what is gonna happen? Is the world gonna crumble? No. Is my house on fire? No. So what is like the consequence of me not doing that thing? If I do it tomorrow, is it gonna make a big difference? So you see, I'm trying to have like this internal conversation with myself where I send Brenda for a walk. And then I try to focus on okay, what is actually happening in my body? Is my chest tightening because I'm feeling anxious, or is it because I feel like I'm starting to compare myself to other people and then I feel like I'm behind? So I think it really depends on each of us, but this is something that I've noticed worked for myself, talking myself out of this anxiety.

Dan Korus: I love it. So step one, find a fun name for your anxiety. And step two, send that personified anxiety for a walk.

Annabelle Botea: Yes.

Dan Korus: Okay, great. And then step three, rest. These are good instructions.

[38:00] Building Pitaya and becoming a founder by default

Dan Korus: So through this journey you've built much of the life that you have now. Do you feel like you're there or do you feel like you have more work to do in building what you want? And for those who don't know, you're a co-founder of a new venture, right? Tell us about that. Do you feel like what you've built is what you wanted, something that is sustainable? Obviously you're having fun with all of the different things that you can be doing every day, right? And that's a really exciting and fun thing to have. Tell us about it.

Annabelle Botea: Yeah, so currently I'm building a project called Pitaya, which is meant to help people simplify their online sales, by selling digital products or services online. And I mean, to be honest with you, it's like a learning process. So there are days when I do get overwhelmed. I'm not gonna lie to you, because it's a lot of work and there's a lot of uncertainty to deal with and a lot of new fields that I'm still learning how to work in. But I would say becoming an entrepreneur was yes, it was about solving a problem because I do enjoy that part of the challenge. But it was also about being able to have autonomy. And be able to build a life or a career that would allow me to structure my days and build this life I was talking about that's more aligned to my values and what I wanted to do in the future. And my co-founder and I, we really have this ambition of breaking a bit of the myth that is sold currently that in three months you will be able to make 10k per month. The reality is a bit more complicated than that because, yes, obviously if you have a huge audience, then yes, you can monetize very quickly. But if you're starting from scratch and you want to build a side hustle or you want to build a career online, it takes more time. And you need to learn how to use a lot of different tools, become an expert in email marketing and building your visibility online. So this is something we're trying to solve with Pitaya. And it's very fun, it's very exciting. We're very looking forward to see where this journey takes us. And it's another learning experience. I don't have the arrogance, but maybe that's not the best word. I don't pretend that I have all the answers because I don't, so I'm also still learning. And as I said, there are days when everything feels great and days when I feel overwhelmed, but at least now I can decide how I move on and move forward in this new career of mine.

Dan Korus: That's great. What's been the hardest part so far of starting a company?

Annabelle Botea: I mean everything. I'm joking. Well, starting a company I think for us it was not that difficult to find the problem to solve because it's something that we both experienced and we both felt very frustrated at how things are right now. So the idea came to us quite easily. What was difficult was more like to keep the vision in mind and to reverse engineer, okay, we want to be there in one year, so how do we make that happen? How do we find new customers? How do we develop visibility? How do we market our solution? How do we place ourselves on the market? So there are a lot of things that are difficult when you start a company. But again, to me it was about having ownership. So this is something I'm very happy about and very excited. And also I feel like, when I tried to find my place on the market for more than five years and that didn't work out really well for me. So the only option that was left at my point was to build something for myself and to become an entrepreneur. So I even wrote a piece about it, that I became a founder by default because I became unemployable at this stage. And it's definitely not an easy journey, but it's very rewarding. And it's very exciting when you know where you wanna go. I think that's something you need to keep in mind, like having a vision.

Dan Korus: Yeah. And so it sounds like there's a lot of aspects of it that are difficult. It's hard to pick which is the most hard, but it's okay because you really like what you're doing.

Annabelle Botea: Yeah, I don't think I can give you one single thing that's very difficult because as I said, I'm learning a lot every day and that's something I really enjoy doing. And yeah, I get to grow as a professional as well. So I'm very happy about that.

[45:00] Leadership as listening and emotional safety

Dan Korus: That's great. Yeah, I love that. So tell me about, you've been a leader in a number of different ways. First you were leading in school and in your academics and in your early career moves, you were what I would call a global leader. And now you're leading in a much more personally powerful way. Do you feel like you're a leader in both senses? And tell us about kind of your leadership journey and what it feels like over time.

Annabelle Botea: You're taking me a bit by surprise because I never saw myself or considered myself a leader. It's a term that I'm still having a hard time to think that okay, yeah, I might be a leader or it's something I might actually be good at. I still feel a bit uncomfortable when I see it. But to me leadership was always about listening to people, it's something I've always done quite intuitively. I was never the person who would speak the first or be the loudest, the most extroverted. Actually quite the contrary. I was more of a shy, introverted child. But that made me a very good listener. And something I've seen in a lot of companies is that the manager always speaks first. And I think it should be exactly the opposite. I think the team should talk first and then the manager kind of creates this framework where people can feel comfortable and then grow as professionals and people as well. And to me leadership is also about being aware because again, some of the companies I worked at, they had a lot of potential and amazing missions, but there was something lacking. Like people were not really communicating, the leadership was not really existent, there was no clear process of how things should be done. And I think that was really a drawback. And I think I have more of a, I don't know, unconventional definition of leadership, because when you tell me leadership, I don't know, you would expect like the most competent or the loudest or I don't know. But to me, it's more about being an active listener, a good empath, and also someone who has emotional awareness about what's happening, but also about themselves. Because for instance, when you need to give difficult feedback, are you gonna start shouting at your employee because the employee made a mistake? That to me is not good leadership. So yeah. I think leadership is also one of the most difficult things to do. So I have a deep admiration for people who want to do that. And yeah, you need to stay open minded to keep learning and growing.

Dan Korus: To me it sounds like you have leadership well figured out, a lot of the emotional intelligence aspects to it. The part about listening and putting other people in your company and around you first. And what about it do you think is hard? Like what do you think is so difficult? Is it the talking to people all the time, right? 'Cause like that gets on my nerves all the time, right? I too am a fairly introverted person and so I think at the end of some days after talking to people for eight or ten hours straight, I'm just like, I don't wanna see another person for twelve hours, right? Yeah, what do you think is the most difficult part of it for you?

Annabelle Botea: I think that one difficult aspect of leadership is also being open to other people's feedback in the sense that you might be thinking you're doing a great job, but I think that if you want to be a great leader, you need to ask your team, is that working for you? Like do you feel like we're working in a collaborative way in a good direction? And if you're actually ready to hear what the person has to say. I think that's, if the person tells you, well, actually no, I don't like us doing meetings every day or I don't like us whatever. There's a very personal aspect to it and I think knowing how to not take it personally is something that I can struggle with because I'm quite sensitive, so if people give me feedback that's not positive, I will put a smile on my face but then I will go cry in my pillow in my room, and try to get over it. But yeah, that would be the difficult part I think.

Dan Korus: Yeah, I there's definitely some sort of, there's the digital boundaries of saying, okay, there's no party poopers available in my notes section, and then there's the in-person boundaries of letting someone's very real and probably objective feedback not affect our personal identity. And I'm terrible at that too. I can get very defensive when people originally give me feedback and it's something I think we all have to work on. And really good feedback can be such a gift, so it's a very underrated skill to be very good at. Something I struggle with too. I think you obviously have an innate gift with emotional intelligence. I don't think many people are able to understand the importance of listening and being slow to absorb other people's thoughts and opinions. Where did you learn emotional intelligence?

Annabelle Botea: I mean, obviously it's not like I went to school to learn about how to deal with anger and frustration and everything. I mean, honestly, I was always a more sensitive kid, so I think I had to kind of toughen up to survive because it was not very, like I was told, you're too sensitive or you're too emotional. So in order for that not to happen anymore, I kind of built up this wall and I wasn't showing anything. But honestly, therapy helped a lot. Because that's where I learned how to recognize what's happening in my body, how to read and understand myself better, but also understand the person in front of me better. And I thought for a very long time that it was actually a curse, to be too sensitive or too empathetic. I thought, I'm never gonna survive in our world with these things. But now I'm viewing them as assets and I'm turning them as actually business advantages, which might sound a bit original, but I'm actually using this awareness, this emotional awareness, to build a business that will be sustainable and also that will allow me to show up as the best version of myself.

Dan Korus: I don't think it's actually surprising that you learned emotional intelligence one by being sensitive as a kid. I think that's something that we're born with and we learn not to do, right? For defense, just like you're saying. And I think a lot of us buy into the myth that by rejecting our sensitivity, we're somehow strengthening ourselves or toughening our exteriors to the world. And what a lie. So I think learning emotional intelligence through therapy is really powerful because therapy is all about yourself, right? And I've done years of therapy myself. And I would argue the same thing. Because I think, just as the quote at from the beginning of the episode, you can't be there for someone else if your cup is empty. I don't think you can understand someone else's emotions until you can understand your own. So in a way, I think the first step to being emotionally intelligent and being able to learn about other people is to learn about ourselves and what's inside us first. I don't think that's surprising or cliche at all. I think that's very accurate to the steps that I would recommend to someone if they wanted to be more emotionally intelligent. What do you think about that?

Annabelle Botea: Hm. If it were up to me I would make therapy mandatory for everyone, but that's like definitely

Dan Korus: At what ages and how long?

Annabelle Botea: Like in high school, at least two years for everyone.

Dan Korus: Good. Cool. Alright, sweet.

[51:00] What first-day, mid-career, and senior leaders need to hear

Dan Korus: So do you think your company's gonna expand to the point that you get employees?

Annabelle Botea: That would be very exciting because that would be my first official role as a leader, as we've mentioned before. And I'd love that. I think it's something I would be ready to step into as a role and would be happy to learn how to actually manage and lead.

Dan Korus: Yeah. What would you want to give to your employees that you didn't have?

Annabelle Botea: Safety. Safety to speak up or to disagree because that's something I didn't have in most of my previous positions. I didn't feel like I was listened to or that my opinion actually mattered. There was [previous employer] where one day I changed the fonts in a document and my manager stormed into my office and started yelling at me. Because, why did I change the fonts? And obviously that didn't encourage me to open up and provide feedback later on. So I would say emotional safety, and really be open to hear what people actually have to say.

Dan Korus: Yeah. It sounds like you're ready to have some employees, Annabelle. Can I ask what was the font that you changed to? Like what was the font change? Like was it a good change? Like this is a, you made a good change, right?

Annabelle Botea: It was honestly a very innocent thing. I think it was previously in like Calibri and I changed it to Times New Roman. Like really irrelevant, like it didn't change the content of the report or anything. It was just like a design change. But yeah, that made

Dan Korus: Yeah, you were going for something professional.

Annabelle Botea: Yes.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Good.

Annabelle Botea: Yeah, no, which is why I'm an entrepreneur now, so I can be my own boss.

Dan Korus: The font, yeah, you can create your own fonts. You can use whatever fonts you want.

Annabelle Botea: Exactly.

Dan Korus: So you're on Substack, and one of the things I love about Substack and finding this little group of entrepreneurs is that it gives us a space to reflect and to write about what we're going through, to put our thoughts onto paper and to share them with other people for reflection. And I think your Substack is quite good. I highly recommend that everyone go find it and subscribe or at least find a couple pieces and go give them a read and see what you're all about because your writing is very fun and it's very direct and very insightful. Yeah, no, it's really good. So what I'm wondering is what sort of writing do you have planned in the future? Are there any pieces that you're really excited about? How are you gonna be using your Substack over the next few months?

Annabelle Botea: Thank you for the question. That's actually a very exciting topic. I want to keep or to use my Substack as a sort of build-in-public platform to share my experience of what it is like to become a first time founder, how do you manage all the challenges that come with entrepreneurship. I do like to post things about my personal challenges and also how I deal with this new professional challenge of building a company. And as you said, I like to write directly. I am a very honest person. I don't like selling things that I didn't experience or that I don't know much about. So I always write about things I can really vouch for, either because I've tested it or because it's something I went through or experienced. And yeah, I like to make my writing fun as well. So there might be some silly metaphors sometimes in there or little jokes because I like also to not take myself too seriously at times. So as you mentioned, if people want to reach out as well on Substack, I'd be happy to talk more about everything we've covered so far.

Dan Korus: Great. I've got a couple more questions for you. Are you ready? Okay. There's I want to know your advice for three different levels of employees. And the first is someone who's starting their first day of work. So for the person who's never had a job before and they're going into the workplace and tomorrow's their first day, what advice do you have for them?

Annabelle Botea: First of all, breathe because it might be stressful. And I can remember myself going into my first job and I was almost shaking like a leaf because I was very nervous. So breathe. People are nice and you will not get eaten by your manager or they won't beat you or whatever. And I would say take as many notes as possible because you're there to learn. And when you start a new position, especially if it's your first day, it's normal that you don't have all the answers. So sometimes it's better to say I don't know than to pretend that you know how to do something and then you actually don't.

Dan Korus: Perfect. Okay, for someone who's in like the middle of their career, like a middle manager, a team lead, someone who's between other different levels of people, what sort of advice do you have for them?

Annabelle Botea: For middle level career or professionals I would say, listen to people around you, maybe because I'm thinking that you can get very comfortable in a job and you just learn how to do your tasks and you can isolate yourself in your expertise. And I would say that, try to see what happens with maybe people who are less experienced or more experienced. Can you learn or exchange from both of them? Can you transmit your knowledge to those who are younger? Can you learn from those who are more experienced? Like I would say keep an open mind, maybe don't become too used to your routine.

Dan Korus: Lovely. That's good advice. Okay, and finally for the senior leaders, the founders, the people at the top, the C-suite executives, the owners, rainmakers, what advice do you have for them?

Annabelle Botea: Oof, well that's something that I'm not there yet. I would say that I'm still fairly young, so it would be a bit presumptuous of me to advise those. But I would say create this emotional safety that I mentioned before so that people can feel like they're valued inside the company and also that if they come to you with a problem you will listen and you will also not judge them or make them feel bad because they suggest improvements or so. I would say definitely be a good listener, put yourself in their shoes and be a good leader.

Dan Korus: Perfect. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about, Annabelle?

Annabelle Botea: Well, I just wanted to say thank you for inviting me to your podcast. I'm very grateful to have had this conversation with you. And if people resonate with our conversation, I would be very happy to connect over Substack or just keep this conversation ongoing. Maybe one thing that is worth mentioning is that we have a little community for first time founders. So if there are fellow entrepreneurs who are starting this journey out, I would be very happy to connect with them and maybe add them to the community.

Dan Korus: Wonderful. That's perfect. Everyone, for all of our listeners, links to Annabelle's Substack. It's called Outside the System. It's going to be in the chat. So just go ahead and click the link below. Go check it out. Give her a follow or subscribe if the work resonates with you. And Annabelle, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

Annabelle Botea: Thank you so much Dan for inviting me and I hope we can keep this conversation going.

Dan Korus: Wonderful.