Leaders: Are You A Shit Umbrella or a Shit Funnel? with Tanu Tiwari

[0:00] writing a book that starts with your own failure

Dan Korus: Welcome to the Kestrel Edge podcast. Today I have Tanu Tawari with me. she spent eighteen years inside global tech and fortune five hundred companies, marketing, data analytics, and leadership. And before becoming an ICF certified leadership coach and the founder of the Conscious Leader Company, she's the author of the forthcoming book, Disengaged. Turning passive teams into proactive microcultures and her substack invisible lessons has quickly become one of the sharpest voices on why workplaces quietly break their most motivated people. So today we're talking about moral injury at work, the microcultures leaders build without knowing it, and a little bit about why AI is forcing leaders to confront an identity crisis they didn't sign up for. Tanu, welcome.

Tanu Tiwari: Thank you so much for having me, Dan. It's such a pleasure, also because we collaborated on an article together. So I'm really excited to be on your podcast.

Dan Korus: I'm excited to have you here. So you've got a lot of projects going on. How are you holding together?

Tanu Tiwari: barely.

Dan Korus: What are you which one are you most excited about right now?

Tanu Tiwari: like you said, my book. I was just telling my mom yesterday that I don't think I'm writing this book, I'm birthing it. I did not

Dan Korus: Ha ha ha.

Tanu Tiwari: think it was gonna be this much work. 'cause I have written two children's books before and I was like, Okay, I know the drill, how it goes, the whole process, but this time I'm working with a publisher, so it's been a lot. and in a good sense also, it's not like I'm complaining, but it's it's just been so much of unraveling that has happened. So a lot of inner work has happened throughout this process, which I did not expect at all. I thought it was just gonna be me regurgitating whatever is coming. coming to my mind and then you know we're gonna go go through edits and that's about it. But there's this whole process of also bringing in people that you know are my target audience and giving it to them as beta readers and then them giving me feedback. That whole process has been really revealing and I have to say I'm loving it but at the same time it's taking a lot out of me. Yes.

Dan Korus: Really. Yeah, that sounds kind of intense. And so it's leading to a lot of inner work for you. What what sort

Tanu Tiwari: Yes.

Dan Korus: of inner work are you having to do? Is it just being able to take in all this feedback and internalize it and turn it into something useful or?

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah, it's just been a lot of self discovery. Also, like I didn't know I had a perfection problem to a level that I I discovered I have. And perfection comes from insecurities, you know? So facing that truth has been hard. And wanting to make sure everything's, you know, perfect to a certain degree before it goes out to the world. It really does pull you back. so that's one of the things and then my book starts with a story of my own career which I hadn't thought about for a lot long, long time. And I'm not gonna give give away too much because it's the beginning of the book, but just in in short, it's about an incident that happened when I was leading a team, somebody on my team quit, and the way they quit, and and what followed after that, that's how the book starts. So when I went back and I decided to start the book that way, there were a lot of hidden feelings that came up. things that I had to face, things that I had to realize I did wrong, and that I am now ready to tell the story to the world and ready to accept where I went wrong publicly, you know. so that's another one, and then as I wrote what I wrote, because the book, like you know, you talked about it's it's about disengagement, right? So The whole thing is raising consciousness in leaders. And for that I interviewed more than 30 professionals, leaders as well as ICs. So the things that were coming up during these interviews and then when I was writing these chapters, it was amazing how much reflection I was doing throughout the process. Like Did I agree with it? Like, am I gonna write it because someone said it, or do I truly believe in this? Like, how does it align with my values, right? That's when it gets a place in my book. So my book coach had to work a lot with me also. Like, book coach is also a therapist, by the way. That's something that I r discovered, or has to be a therapist. they had to remind me that

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Tanu Tiwari: listen, everything is not for everyone. You're writing a book, it's not gonna be for everybody. And write, pick, pick out pieces that most align with you and your values. And whatever you want to say to the world about this particular top topic, yes, there will be people that'll be like, you didn't talk about this or you didn't talk about that. And I love how your cat's just walking on your laptop right now. That is so cute. What's your cat's name?

Dan Korus: Yeah, she's a little she's a little friend, yeah. Yeah, she's around. Yeah, she's here. Yeah. So this is Fox. This is Fox. She has one eye. she was born with a micro

Tanu Tiwari: hi, Fox

Dan Korus: eye, so she has a clef lip and a little micro eye, but she's my she's my work buddy. I also have two dogs, so high ground is safe for her, so she's normally on my desk when I'm here. This is our quality time. okay, so Writing a book sounds intense, especially when it's something that and I think most people write leadership books like their nonfiction, right? And they write about the good times and the successes and they're saying, Okay, if you follow this generalists framework, you two can lead like me. And the approach that you're taking, and I love this because it's different, is you're starting from a spot of weakness and a spot

Tanu Tiwari: Uh-huh.

Dan Korus: of self critique. And you're helping people learn what they can do better over time. Which I think is really impactful and something that we need to see more of. So, you know, without giving too much of it away, because I do want people to go look at your book, Do you know who your book is for? Like who d who do you who do you hope reads your book? who do who do you think's really gonna like it or learn something? Maybe those are a couple of different people.

Tanu Tiwari: That's a that's a great question. So yes, I think it's for anybody that's in the business of mobilizing people. That's how I would say it. And yes, you can break it down into the leaders group of middle management versus founders versus people that are aspiring leaders. Everybody that Wants to move people, influence people, will find this book helpful. And it's interesting that you caught onto that. Yes, I do start with weakness. and this book is not your typical, here's what you do to be a great leader. What I do at the beginning of the book here is Actually go into what are the leadership behaviors. So I have a section in the book called The Seven Habits of Unintentional Mismanagement. So nobody goes into leadership thinking I'm gonna ruin someone's life, but inevitably a lot of them do, right? and this section of the book particularly talks, you know, about how people intend one thing from their behavior, but it helps Ends up impacting people in a completely different way. So it's gonna take you through a journey of here's one habit that you might have, and you think this is what you're trying to do with it, but this is how people are perceiving it, and that's different, and this is what it's causing as a knock-on effect. And then obviously, no books, you know, that are self-help books are. complete without a framework. So I obviously have a framework as well. And that framework is called the Proactive Framework, which is very much backed into Stanford's research on organizational behavior and design. So Stanford talks about the people, architecture, routines, and culture. And my framework goes deeper with Proactive. Those are nine conditions that you need to have a healthy culture within your teams.

[7:50] what microcultures am I building on my team without noticing?

Dan Korus: Great. Are you using this framework now? How's it going?

Tanu Tiwari: So, yeah, I have started using the framework. It's something that I'm pivoting to. So

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Tanu Tiwari: I was doing one-on-one coaching and working with leaders on an individual basis, but I've started doing a few tests with the framework. And I have

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Tanu Tiwari: also built an AI tool which helps scan and diagnose what your C stack is what I call it. Your culture stack looks like. So if you think of it, you don't build a product without knowing what your tech stack is. Is right, every organization uses a technology stack, and you know how it's built, what it's built on, there are people managing it. The same way your teams they have a culture stack, and we don't even you know stop to think about it. So the whole premise of my book is that leaders are building microcultures, which they may or may not be aware of. And that's where your C stack lives. So this C stack tool it helps you scan your culture stack and it's all trained on my book. And you know, it asks you 10-15 questions, very targeted, based on use cases or things that could be going on with your teams. And then it gives you a report that scores you on each of those nine conditions from Proactive and tells you how you score, gives you a tip as well, and then obviously sends you to speak to me on how to. Design better. And the whole idea is that you know we have more agency than we realize as leaders, and a company has one company culture, but that doesn't translate into teams. Teams are most impacted by the cultures created by their own individual leaders. So you might have seen within one organization, one team is thriving, is doing really well, the other team's struggling and, you know, is constantly losing, like not missing targets and stuff. And why is that happening? It's happening because they're being led by two different leaders who have completely different styles and they create completely different kinds of microcultures. And That's what I want. I want with this book the leaders to know that they have agency. They don't have to be conduits of the company culture. They can be the architects of their own microcultures. And I help them design that.

Dan Korus: Nice. That's great. I think this is good and I like the argument that even if your broader organization has elements of culture that you disagree with or you find harmful or not necessarily as productive, that there are still things that you can do to make your culture better. And I like that you're outlining tools that people could go use hopefully, you know, the next day, and and try and work on them and also get some diagnoses 'cause you know no diagnostic tool is ever gonna give you a complete a complete picture of the entire company, right? Like that's that's impossible. Well, maybe not impossible, but it's not cost effective. Having a good tool that you can use and hopefully just point you in the right direction and think of something novel that you hadn't thought about before is very valuable and what a great use of time. And I wanna zoom out for a second because I think a lot of times on the podcast I don't do a good enough job of laying the landscape, right? Of like why I think this is important. And so I pulled some statistics that I think are relevant to your work and and one of the big ones I think have been brought up a lot is is the Gallup 2026 State of the Global Workplace that says that global engagement is now at twenty percent for workers, which is the lowest it's been since twenty twenty. so it's the first two consecutive years of decline ever recorded and manager engagement collapsed from thirty one percent to twenty two percent since twenty twenty two. So there's no region on earth that increased In engagement, everyone decreased.

Tanu Tiwari: Yes.

Dan Korus: and we had ten trillion estimated loss in productivity, which is nine percent of the global GDP. and your thesis is the explanation that Gallup describes but can't necessarily prescribe. So, you know, what do you think about engagement, Tanu? And if someone was, you know, gonna pick up your book, how would it help them have a higher engaged team?

Tanu Tiwari: I love that question and I love that you set the stage with the numbers. You've done your research. And yes, the the research is the premise why I actually got into writing this book. And I I think Like I said, it was a lot of self-discovery, but also seeing people around me, you know. Why do you think coaches are in business right now for leadership? It's because leadership is broken and someone needs to go in and fix it. So Obviously it was like a no brainer. I care so much about leadership and when I saw these stats I was like, I don't have a book because I you can see my background, like my bookshelves full of books on leadership and and books about corporate life and stuff. And my husband does a lot of reading as well, but I was speaking to him and I'm like, Is there a book that helps you you know, build better teams and so yeah, he sure he recommended a few books, but none of them were really talking about the epidemic of disengagement. And it keeps getting worse year after year. Global is 20% and yeah, US numbers are about 31%. So if you think of it, one third of your workforce or less than one third of your workforce is actively, you know, engaged and Working on what you're building or what you believe in. Everyone else is like walking around like zombies or completely like disengaged or interested in something else. So what I found when I was doing my research was that engaged leaders build engaged teams, pretty much. And there's another stat which says that. the variance of engagement depends on managers like 70%. So seven out of ten people that leave on their own, any company, they leave because of their managers, not because of the company itself. So if you see the bottom line impact, you said trilli trillions of dollars and there's You know, one-third of the workforce is probably engaged, and then there's seven out of ten people leaving. So there's some kind of pattern there, and something needs to be done about it. The other thing that really inspired me to write this book was: I am a recovering workaholic. And when I was pregnant with my daughter. I was working in a client-facing company and I was so crazy about my work that I've gone into the labor and I'm messaging my team on Slack, take care of this client, do this, do that, while I was in labor. And up until they took me for the C-section, I was like thinking about work and what needs to happen and now I'll be like out for a few weeks. I wasn't even thinking months. I was I was gonna be out for a few weeks. And I think she was like five months old when I left her for the first time and went for a trade show in Vegas. And I remember being on the floor, selling to clients, talking to them, and then running to find a room to pump pump and then I had to donate the milk. Going through all of that was a very emotional process for me. And it didn't really click until a few years later that my god, my entire identity was so intertwined with who I was at work that I was even spending 15, 16, 17 hours a day thinking about work and working. And then When I looked around, I see a lot of high performers or high-functioning individuals doing the same. So I realized that we're spending one-third of our lives at workplace, if not more, right? And in some cases, it's a hundred percent of our identity. If I asked you to introduce yourself, you'd probably lead with your title, your job, where you work. And it's hard to find who we are. And then and then we're we're spending so much time at work and How are we feeling? We're miserable. So my little mission that I came up with when I started my coaching practice was to help reduce workplace misery by raising consciousness in leaders.

[15:39] the three S's: seen, significant, safe

Dan Korus: Okay, that's pretty sharp. I like that. And thanks for sharing the story with us. Honestly, Tanu, it sounds like you were too engaged. You know? Like you were definitely helping the engagement statistic. You

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah.

Dan Korus: you were engaged for sure. You were not one of the disengaged people. do you think So do you think there's in like positive lessons that came out of being engaged that have made it into the book on how you engage teams? You know, like Obviously there's there's a boundary there, right? And we're saying that when you present the facts in a certain order, it definitely appears to be that management is the the cause and the solution for disengagement in the workplace, at least on a local level. And so we're saying okay, if you have a more engaged manager and they do certain things, you can have a more engaged team. and I'd agree with that. And so You know, where d where do you think that line is? And what do you think that experience taught you about how to teach people engagement?

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah, they were positive lessons, but you know what I realized was that when people enter the workforce, they are very engaged. They come in with the right intentions, they want to give it their best, but they also want to get something out of it, not just a paycheck. And the fact that I was so engaged and I made it, you know, all of my identity is It's also a testament to how much emotional investment I had made into this company, job, role, whatever it was. And you don't invest if you don't think there's not gonna be an ROI, right? And the ROI that we want as individuals who are investing or engaging is different from what the leaders are understanding the ROI is. So that's a huge gap. We want to feel like we belong, like we're a part of something big that again P for purpose in my proactive framework. We want to feel like there is a big purpose that we are working towards, not just do tasks that are assigned to us on a day-to-day basis. We want to feel like you know our values are aligned. To the work we are doing. That's the alignment that I talk about in my framework. So at the end of the day, without getting into every single piece of it, there are three things that I found that people need. They need to be seen, they need to feel significant, and they need to feel safe. The three S's. So if you as a leader can make your team feel seen, you know, like they have rights, they have ownership. You see the work they do. They feel seen, they feel understood, they have a voice, and then they feel significant. The work they're delivering is impacting something. Everyone wants to impact. Everyone wants to feel like the work they're doing. matters in some way. And then safe, psychological safety. Very, very important. Safe to speak up, safe to act, safe to be who they are. So that was a huge learning. And I think apart from everything else that I talk about in the book, if someone just remembers those those three things when they're acting with their teams, any action you take, try to think is it really helping people feel seen significant or safe? Or is it contradicting those goals for me as a leader? That's how I would say it in a very simple way.

Dan Korus: Okay, seen significant and safe. Okay. So I get safe. someone comes to work and they can they can be themselves a little bit more than than they could otherwise. They don't have to put on his mask as much. do you think okay, so you've been in corporate a while, right? Do you think it's getting easier or harder to come to work to be your s and and, you know, feel safe? Or do you think it kinda depends on the industry? What's been the trends over your career? What you think about that?

[23:29] how do I rebuild psychological safety during constant layoff cycles?

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah. I think first of all trends are always cyclical. If you think about mm, you know, a decade ago how things were so much about, let's, you know, build a great company that offers three pizza parties and what more benefits and incentives can we offer? Ten, fifteen ago years ago that's how it was. Google was all about do no evil, right? And every company was coming up with more and more ways to incentivize people. And then, you know, we became all about stocks and how much money someone can make. Incentives are important but not so much. People are n not really caring so much about, you know, the foosball table in in the office as much as the equity they can get. And then it moved to more like inclusion and DEI is so important. Everyone's hiring chief diversity officer and what does the brand stand for? I wanna be aligned to the company's brand and voice and w what it stands for in the society. And then where are we now? You know? The great resignation happened, people were the ones that hold held so much power over the companies and then It changed completely shifted to now the companies hold the power. There's cycles and cycles of layoffs. People don't even have the psychological safety of having a job, forget about being themselves at the job. So I think right now people in the workforce are afraid for their livelihoods and they're afraid to obviously be who they are and be themselves, but there is very little psychological safety at the moment. and that is why you know I bring you back to the premise of my book that yes macroeconomics we can hardly impact that. Market is doing something, the company at company level would be doing something, but if I have one leader That makes me feel seen, safe, significant, I don't give a shit. I can survive this, I can weather this storm, and I can thrive in my little microcosm that I'm working under.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay. So if if you're like a middle manager or you know, like a mid senior manager at a company that typically has a lot of layoffs and

Tanu Tiwari: Mm-hmm.

Dan Korus: maybe the people don't feel as safe, right? People you say are it sounds you know, I think walking on eggshells,

Tanu Tiwari: Yes.

Dan Korus: right, just Maybe even masking more and bringing a little bit less less authenticity just so that they can feel like their job's not at risk. What would you say those middle, you know, senior managers should do for their teams to try and increase that day-to-day safety?

Tanu Tiwari: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think everyone's gone into self-preservation mode, right? If you're not gonna give a shit about me, why will I give a shit about you? I have to protect myself. That's the attitude people have right now. And whether it's Gen Z or Millennial or whoever, everyone's shit scared. It's it's your layoff cycles on one hand, and then there's the AI revolution, which is making people very, very insecure about Is my job or am I gonna be even relevant in a few years? Am I doing the right amount of upskilling? So w what we need to really double down on as leaders is trust and transparency, middle managers. They need to make sure, yes, nobody has all the answers right now. So for example, when AI revolution started, right? When AI became more democratized and people companies started implementing AI use. Everybody was expected to upskill overnight and to start using AI in their workflows immediately. And I have gone through this as well. We are expected to build a plane while we fly it. So business doesn't stop, but at the same time, you're expecting me to upskill. And then to implement these in into our workflows and at the same time deliver the deliverables that we have on the docket. So when we are doing all of this, what's happening is that there is no time or mind space for the right kind of communication. People are already in self-preservation mode. They've gone through layoffs after layoffs. So I'm talking about the ones that stayed, not even talking about the ones that got laid off. You know, it it's it's this feeling of being in a chicken coop. I don't know when if I'll be next or when I'll be next. And if you're not communicating, this is the time you have to be over-communicating, not under-communicating. So sure, middle management might not have all the answers, but coming with authenticity and talking to your team and telling them, hey, this is what they're doing, this is what they're implementing. And this is why it matters. This is where you come into the picture. So in a lot of cases, there's no buy-in whatsoever. Nobody knows why am I a part of this? What's in it for me? We call it the wiff withums or something. There's a short form, what's in it for me? so the withems are important. Yeah.

Dan Korus: That's great. I love that. With Yeah, what what's in it for me?

Tanu Tiwari: Exactly. Everyone wants to know what's in it for me. So

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Tanu Tiwari: get that buy-in. Get them on board. And even if it's not something that you believe in or it's like transitory period, like this transition going on and it's a temporary thing, tell them that. Share it

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Tanu Tiwari: with them. Create the more you communicate, the more trust you build as a as middle management. So There's one thing that I talk about in my book. I'll tell you a story.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Yes, please.

Tanu Tiwari: what I talk about in my book is there's two types of leaders, especially for middle management, okay? There's the shit umbrella leaders, and there's the shit funnel leaders. So when I used to work in London, I had a team of six or seven people that I was managing. And then I got married, I moved away. When I moved away, a few of them I was in touch with. I started finding out that one by one everyone resigned in a very short period of time and they left. And then I, you know, had this big conference call with all of them, and I was catching up and I was like, hey, what happened? You know, why did everyone leave one one by one? And then someone said, It it's because you were the shit umbrella. I'm like, wait, what? So what she said to me was, yeah, like there was a lot of crap coming from above and we only realized what you were doing was shielding us from all the crap for the longest time. As soon as you left, it all fell on us and we just couldn't handle it. And the shit f you know, the shit funnel leader is not doing a good job of shielding their team. Another example would be someone, you know, that I witnessed in a sales meeting going crazy on their team because their sales director went crazy on them about something. So they bring that energy, all the shit from above, and then they funnel it right onto their teams. So it's up to you to decide you wanna be a shit umbrella or you wanna be a shit funnel. And especially in the time of crisis, overcommunicating, building trust, building transparency, and then being that shit umbrella for them is all you need for people to thrive under your microculture.

[31:19] what does being a shit umbrella look like during a strategy pivot?

Dan Korus: I love this. and it relies up upon the presupposition that shit flows downhill. You know, which I think we can all agree with. And if anyone

Tanu Tiwari: Mm-hmm.

Dan Korus: disagrees with us that shit rolls downhill, 'cause it always does, you know, feel free to put it in the comments. And we'll have a mathematical answer for you on that. so, you know, I think give give us some if someone if someone doesn't if someone wants to be a shit umbrella Just give like a couple of examples, what would it look like during the workday to be a shit umbrella instead of a shit funnel?

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah, so an example would be they're making some change in strategy and your team worked very hard on the last strategy that you know you were really working on on full speed, fighting on all cylinders and everybody was just You know, burning the midnight oil and working on this thing, and then suddenly you hear from senior leadership that strategy has changed. Now, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna go and tell your team, hey guys, you know, I'm sorry, strategy has changed. Let's pivot, let's make this change, let's get it done, guys. That's one kind of leader that would communicate it like that. But the other way to do this is first of all understand what has changed in the strategy. Why did they make the change? Find out what's in it for the team. How is it gonna make things better for them in the future? If there are any. If there aren't any, before you even take it to the team, can you please push back on certain things, certain changes? Bring that up to your senior leaders as middle management. Say, hey, this is what we were working on, this is the the amount of work we've already done. Do you think we can, you know, use this part in the new strategy and implement it in a way that Everything's not thrown away. Now there are cases where everything will have to be thrown away, right? So, what do you do? In that case, there's no tangible action that you can take, but it's how you say and how you communicate things. The way you communicate things to the team is: hey guys, you know, when I heard this, I was devastated. Of course, we've worked so hard on this, and I made sure you know the senior leadership team knew. and I Took your names in that room. I let them know how hard you guys have worked and you've come up with this great, you know, deliverable. And the good news is we don't have to throw everything out. Look, we have learned this through the experience. So we don't have to reinvent the wheel. It was a great learning experience for us. Now the strategy is shifted. We can lift and shift this part of what we are changing and then work on this one and let me know how I can help. I'm ready to roll up my sleeves. And you know, get my hands dirty and and help you guys out. So this is the kind of leader that shows support that is transparent that they did not agree with the strategy shift in the middle of the quarter, the way it shifted either. So this is not about bitching about your senior leaders, it's actually being authentic, right? It's saying I didn't agree with it either that they did it this way, but here we are. We have to make the shift. So the team feels that the leaders and on our side, they have Our backs, and then telling them, I told them the hard work you've done. So advocating for your team, saying, I tried to push back, but this is what the result is, and this is where we are going, and this is why it's important. So not only are you communicating to your team what happened and why it happened, what's in it for them, but you're also you know showing them that you are all you're human. you feel for them and you're gonna be available available for them you're gonna help them out through this shift and change they don't have to worry about again working 12 and 14 hours a day and then what we can implement you know that's already been done all their work has not gone to waste so doing it mindfully thinking about the human behind the little square on your screen Especially when we work remotely, and thinking about what they're gonna go through once you communicate what you're communicating to them, right? So the way we expect our employees to preempt, that's what I was always taught: preempt what your client wants, preempt what your leader wants. The same way the leader should preempt what if the impact is gonna be on the team of how they communicate something.

Dan Korus: That's great. I like it. So people can be a shit umbrella by you know pushing back against changes, being able to, you know, be there for their team, being able to explain rationale, being able to negotiate with people around them to protect their team's efforts. Awesome. Hey, so I

Tanu Tiwari: Absolutely.

Dan Korus: wanna read something. Earlier we were talking about the AI revolution and I had some facts prepared that I wanted to bring into context, just in case people don't fully understand like the situation. So this is a study from so I'm just gonna throw some stats out there and I want you to tell me what you think about this. You I I I'm positive you've heard these before. So this is the Modern Health, which is a mental health workplace mental health platform, Modern Health. they got responses from over a thousand full time employees at different companies and they found the following That 69% of people believe that AI will lead to layoffs at their company, that 58% say they trust AI chatbots more than HR for mental health support. That 63% of employees in the study report using alcohol, cannabis, or unprescribed drugs to cope with stress. that fifty-one percent say they cried because of work stress in the past month. And seventy-two percent believe employers prioritize productivity over employee well-being. So you talk a lot about AI in in your articles and blogs and the effect that it has on the workplace. And one of the things that you've written is that AI isn't disrupting leader industry, it's disrupting identity. You know, you really focus on that. And so, you know, with these stats in mind, as kind kind of the basis for what we're calling the AI revolution, you know, and the effect that it's having on people's mental health. you know, and wrapping all of this into a discussion about engagement and and our current health baseline in the workplace. You know, tell us a little bit more about your philosophy and in particular about AI's disruption on people's identities. 'Cause I think that's really interesting.

[39:09] AI isn't disrupting your industry, it's disrupting your identity

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah so The the main thing is it just dropped on us like an asteroid, you know, out of nowhere, first of all. People are going about their life, they've been used to these, you know, career models and the templates we're all used to. You study well, you get into college, you get into workforce, you have your entry-level jobs, and then you become you know, specialize in a certain field and that's it. Like that's have that's been our model for hundreds of years now, right? and well, in the modern workplace, decades I would say. So now something comes about just like that, completely disrupts that model that we've been used to. The people that are an aging population, if you think of People's demographics, right? The aging population is worried that they're already irrelevant. It's too much for them to start upskilling and they're nearing retirement, so they're done. And then there's the millennials and people that are, you know, from forty to fifty, sixty years old. for them it's a huge lift to start now upskilling. And figuring out where do they stand? They still have many years left of their employment. How do they maximize? And once you're in that age, you're at the pinnacle because you have never had more money than this, right? So, like you have the most money at that age, you have the best network, you have the most respect. As a professional. So you're thinking you're at the pinnacle. This is the greatest time. I have all these resources that I can invest and make my retirement even better in a few years. So for them, it was a train wreck. Like, what the heck? All my plans are around the drain. What do I even do now? Upscale and become AI what? And then there's the part of the population that knew right off the bat that their jobs are gonna be redundant. They're gone. Like nobody's hiring people to code anymore. Right? And then the young generation that we are basing our entire future on, the Gen Zs and you know alphas and stuff, they are wondering why the heck are we even doing what we're doing? You know, we're already on board, we're using AI. I might as well be becoming, you know, some sort of influencer somewhere. Like what's the point of all this? So everyone's in different directions, you know, pulled in different directions right now. And the people that are in still in school, that that were preparing for colleges, they don't even know there's no entry-level job options anymore. Are they are you gonna hire people to become managers right away? So the entire ecosystem is completely destroyed. And

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Tanu Tiwari: nobody knows the right answers. Nobody knows how to go along with it and what's the best step forward. But at the same time, the good thing is it's creating this gig economy where a lot of people are becoming experts at things and they're what they're predicting is more entrepreneurs are gonna come out of this. And people are gonna stop depending on you know a day job. And at the same time, then one thing that really irks me is the big corporations, they made a lot of bets, right, in the last few decades.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Tanu Tiwari: Their business models were failing in some area or the other. As soon as this AI disruption came about, they started using it as an excuse to start laying people off. Most of the layoffs that have happened are not AI related, even though people think it is. It's just an excuse that these companies have used to hide behind the fact that their business model had a problem. And that was failing. If you look at Bob Thompson, just recently passed away, he is one of the best leaders. of all times. he talked about there was there was this podcast with Simon Sinek. Simon Sinek did some like a he he went into a s manufacturing facility and spoke to different people and try to understand how they run their company. It's called Barry Weimuler, the the company that he founded and Bob T Chapman he talk he talked about how he would never lay people off. Even during the financial crisis crisis, he did not lay people off. He brought them together, talked to them about it, and then people took lesser salary and they took cuts, but they didn't they they didn't lay people off. He said you don't have to lay people off. And when you hire people, you're not hiring people, you're hiring their entire families, their livelihoods, everything depends on you. So he took care of his people like like they were his own children. Now that's another end of the spectrum, very idealistic. You won't find that kind of leadership today. But that's the truth, right? If people feel dispensable, how do you think they'll be loyal to your company? How do you think they'll

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Tanu Tiwari: feel any kind of, you know, love towards the work they're doing? And and they need to feel love. So love is such a wishy-washy, you know, word that cannot be used in terms of like professionalism or workplace and stuff. But he used to look use that word, and like you you need to love your people. People need to feel the love for the work they do. And it's true, it's one of the fundamental needs that we have as human beings. And yeah, so what AI has done. it's democratized intelligence in a way. Like everyone can be creative now, everyone can be intelligent. but I think we are in this liminal space right now where the shift is happening. We don't know how it's gonna rearrange. Everyone has their own predictions. This is how it'll end up, that's how it'll end up. But who knows how it'll end up. but What's important to know is that The trust, you know, the trust factor is very low in the work you're doing in the company you're working for right now. And if you just take it as this is all temporary and we're moving towards something, what can I do here to just make sure that in this Titanic that's sinking, at least I have a log of wood to, you know, swim on. And and to float on and not drown.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Tanu Tiwari: That's that's how you have to take it at the moment, pretty much.

Dan Korus: Got it. Okay, so I I th I think that's a beautiful place to I'll I'll link to that interview. I'll link to a few things in there 'cause I want people to be able to find you after this. I wanna leave the listeners with three questions and I ask everyone these questions. so, you know, briefly For someone who's starting their first day of work tomorrow, first job, first day, what's your advice for them?

[46:58] advice for new hires, middle managers, and senior leaders

Tanu Tiwari: I would say find Find what makes you take pretty much for yourself. What what your purpose is gonna be, like whether you're gonna work there for one year, two three years. If you do a little bit of inner work and find out what makes you tick and w what's gonna make you stay engaged or get the best out of it. I'm not gonna say give the best to it because if you find what is gonna make you get the best out of that role, you'll automatically give it your best.

Dan Korus: Cool. How long can it take for people to find? Just a quick, just a quick side question. How long can it take for people to find what makes them tick? Does it happen in a day? How long can it take?

Tanu Tiwari: there are signs, for sure. You know, there are signs from your life outside of work that we're not noticing, we're not looking at. sometimes it can take years, right? Because we are all on

Dan Korus: Got it.

Tanu Tiwari: different consciousness levels. You must have heard the soul theory. People say some people are old souls, they already have so much knowledge and understanding of the world and then there are some new souls. So yes, it is i something that can take a long time for some people. But the one thing to really focus on is what energizes you. Energy is such a good clue.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Tanu Tiwari: Whatever energizes you about your work, you know, look at your day-to-day, where does your energy rise? If it if you had to put it plotted on a graph, where does your energy rise, where does it drop?

Dan Korus: Cool.

Tanu Tiwari: And when you find that, you look at what about it makes your energy rise up.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Awesome. Okay, great. So for middle middle leaders, people who are in the middle of their career, people who have folks above and below what's your advice for them?

Tanu Tiwari: that's a very, very hard place to be. First of all, I empathize with you

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Tanu Tiwari: because middle management is dealing with so many cross pressures right now. They have to deal with the pressure from above and also expectations from below. And then somehow balance it out beautifully so there's less attrition and less stress from everywhere. my one advice to them would be: do a values exercise first for yourself. What are your values as a leader or as a professional? What do you care about? And start with how am I feeling in this role? How am I feeling in this job? Are you happy or not? If you're not happy, then where is that misalignment coming from? Are you not happy because of your you know, environment, your leaders? Is it not because of is it because of your compensation that you're not happy with? So if you look at the different areas, whether it's related to compensation, whether it's related to the nature of work, the people you work with and what you're bringing to the table if it's aligned with who you are. So those are the four areas I would look at and then do a values exercise and see if there's any misalignment. Because if you like you talk about Dan, if you things like, you know, if you don't take care of yourself You cannot show up as a good leader. If you're not sleeping on time, you know, I see you talk about your mental health and your well-being first and foremost. So I would say do that values exercise and do a check on your own alignment in these four different areas. And that's gonna make sure that you show up as a good leader for your people and as a good middle manager for your seniors.

Dan Korus: I love it. This is great. And I love the focus on values. maybe do you have a do you have like a Substack article or something that talks about finding values? Or maybe will there be one in the future? There are. There's some there. Awesome.

Tanu Tiwari: Yes. Yeah, I will I will send you I will send you something on that.

Dan Korus: We're gonna link to that in the podcast description, folks. so you should definitely check out Tani's writing. Okay, so last question for the senior leaders out there, the people at the top, what's your advice for them?

Tanu Tiwari: I would say AI is amazing. we are heading to this unbelievable world of technology like never before. But remember, people were, are, and forever will be your biggest currency.

Dan Korus: That's awesome. Okay,

Tanu Tiwari: Mm.

Dan Korus: great. That's good. short, sweet, and powerful. So how can people get in touch with you? And what's the best way to get in touch with you? Plug plug your stuff right now.

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah, so I am all over the place here on social media. I'm on Instagram at the Conscious Leader Co. And TikTok, the same handle at the Conscious Leader Co on LinkedIn is by Tanutvari. On Substack, you can subscribe to Invisible Lessons. And then of course I have my website. It's the Consciousleaderco.com. And also a reminder: you can take the free sub C stack check on my website. The AI tool I talked about, it's available on the website. You can go take that scan for yourself as a leader and then the results get emailed to me as well. You can get in touch based on what you find and I'll be happy to have like a free strategy call with you.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Okay, dude, that's a generous offer. That's great. We'll have all of that linked in the description. Tanu, we did it. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here. Yeah. How'd that go? Is that good? Okay, good. Huh?

Tanu Tiwari: Yay. Thank you. It was a wonderful conversation, seriously. I liked it. Yeah. What do you what do you think?

Dan Korus: I think you crushed it. Yeah, I think you did really well. That was awesome. Yeah.

Tanu Tiwari: Thank you.

Dan Korus: It was so interesting to hear about your book writing process. and how you described it as giving birth. You know? And then

Tanu Tiwari: I guess.

Dan Korus: and then later in the episode you talked about giving birth and being like all up in the job and like learn you know, being there and I was like, Wow, Tani, you've been through it. Yeah. I would love

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah.

Dan Korus: to do an a a future conversation where we talk more about your history and and how you got to where you are. That's one thing that I wish I got to ask you more about. I just got too caught up in the other stuff, so

Tanu Tiwari: Yeah, there's so much to talk about all the time, right? Yeah. No

Dan Korus: There is.