Why Your Next CEO Should Come From HR with Mark Putrus

[0:00] from pharma rep to chief people officer

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay, duly noted. when I come to visit, and you have me over for dinner, I'll come in late September or early October. So that'll be our calendar slot that we're looking for. So you st

Mark Putrus: Yeah. Perfect, yeah.

Dan Korus: you studied public policy, is that right?

Mark Putrus: I did, yeah. I studied public policy. I did nothing with it. actually w

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: when I had graduated one of my best friend's dads was in pharmaceutical sales and he was convinced that I was, you know, sort of well suited for the role. And so I, you know, pretty impressionable, you know, young, immature, you know, college kid. And I was like, Yeah, that sounds sound interesting. I mean, everybody

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: sort of, you know, when I did my homework, everyone was sort of raved about those jobs, you know, they're pretty pretty secure, pretty lucrative. And yeah, so I started my career. in pharma and then sort of navigated through pharma into med device and you know I was ambitious and so you know grew into leadership roles and eventually made a pivot into HR which

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: I absolutely adore and love and has you know s certainly shaped you know who or or maybe I've shaped it but it has also shaped me. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. And I've got a ton of questions around your current philosophy in in in HR and how it transforms leadership. I do want to know more about your past though. So so public public policy You know, and I think that's a common trope that we study things that we don't end up using a lot. you know, and it's the tangential

Mark Putrus: Yeah.

Dan Korus: skills we learn that shape our decision making and how we lead. And for you, you know, what what was it like going from, you know, med med policy to med devices? What were some of the, you know, life events that were shaping that at the time, and leading up to the transition where you got eventually got into HR?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, so I'll take you through the I'll take you through the journey and I'll try to be as succinct as possible. So I started in pharma

Dan Korus: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: and had a number of sort of different types of roles. started sort of traditional rep, then went into some you know training opportunities, then eventually into like a management development program. And what what I was finding as I was, you know, sort of navigating that early sort of tenure in my career was that there was this prestige around medical device. And so eventually made the pivot into med device. And you know it's interesting when you move from pharma to med device, it's sort of like almost starting over. And so I had to sort of grow into You know, more leadership roles. And then got into sales training. And that was sort of my first like entree into sort of this, you know, tangential LD space. And I remember I remember distinctly working for a biotech company, and I was responsible for all the commercial training. And it was a smaller biotech company, it's actually what brought me to San Diego. And the VP of HR, she had a really small team, and she's hey, Mark, you're You're doing all of this training for the commercial organization, and it's like we're almost like not intentionally excluding, but it's what about the RD organization? What about the sort of non-commercial entities across the broader organization? Because you're already leaning into leadership development. You're just you've got this kind of sales leadership development sort of spin on it. Let's just make it more broad. And eventually, because she didn't have the budget to hire an LD person, I sort of started leaning sort of slowly into the The L and D space. And I had a couple of mentors then within L and D who were like, like you're shoeing for HR. Like you, you're philosophically sort of the way, the way you, you know, support the business. You've obviously been in the commercial side of the house. So you don't speak like I call it 1980s HR, because you don't have some of those bad habits. You're sort of built for a modern organization. You're pretty progressive in your thinking. You should do this pivot. And you know, sure enough, Dan, that's exactly What I did. I eventually moved from sales training, commercial operations, sales force effectiveness, and then went into a traditional LD. And then that's when my HR career sort of took off. I went from LD to HR business partnering to people operations, total rewards. So I did a bit of a tour duty across you know multiple HR disciplines and then eventually became a chief people officer. and then the the company where I was a chief people officer recently got acquired and so now

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: I'm I'm not the number one, you might sort of think of me as a lieutenant under under her, but like

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: I am really thriving. I've been on this fitness journey and

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: have found sort of outlets. this is where you discovered me. I started writing.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: Like I found space, right? And when you have two young

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: kids, you don't really find a lot of space. So I'm I've really I feel very humbled and grateful that I've been able to take you know the number two spot and not be another CPO for at least a period of time. So that I can lean into some other passions in my life.

Dan Korus: Absolutely. And it you know, I think that there's more to life than just holding the top spot and you know, it's it's good to be able to trade and I think we should have bench leadership, a deeper bench in most executive teams, that way we can swap and, you know, let people take a back seat and think about different things and we'll be able to get more done too if you, you know, were like, Okay, this month I'm not gonna go to any meetings, you're gonna go to all the meetings and I'm gonna sit back and observe and listen and kinda be on the floor more. and you know, that's kind of my own thoughts and so One thing I want to know is what does 1980s leader HR leadership sound like? What are some examples of that? And how do you break the mold? What did they see in you that that contrasted that?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I mean I I I the so the ongoing joke, I mean, i you know, HR there's a lot of opinions around HR, right? And you know, it's gone through its own evolution. You know, we don't refer to it as HR in most modern organizations, we refer to it as the people team or people operations or people and culture. And I I I do think that's probably a better a better naming convention, but but like change the name, but if you still operate in the same way, it's lipstick on a pig, right? So it you've really not not evolved the the mindsets and the thinking and sort of the way HR might behave. And quite frankly, the it's probably one of the most misunderstood functions in an organization. But you know, my perspective on HR, and this obviously has, you know, evolved over time, I don't know why we treat HR any different Than marketing or you know, a revenue part of the organization. Just call any any other function or any other business unit. What what makes HR any different? It it it has a it has a expertise, it has a discipline, it contributes to the bottom line. It's not just a a cost center. And I think part of the reason is that. You know, unlike marketing, you know, maybe more of the like marketing functions are client-facing or internal stakeholder-facing, where there are some functions within the HR realm that don't interact as much with clients or internal stakeholders because you've got this HR business partner function. But you could argue maybe marketing should adopt something like that, because that probably was one of the most effective mechanisms for HR teams in organizational life. So but yeah, my my perspective is that. HR is just like any other part of the business, and if it's underinvested, it will underperform. Just like I've seen a CMO get really frustrated when the organization doesn't believe in marketing and it's underinvested, marketing underperforms. HR is the same way, but HR is probably more often than not underinvested in. You invest

[7:35] what people get wrong about what HR is for

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: in HR the way you invest in any other function in a business, watch what happens. It will excel.

Dan Korus: Yeah. So what is the is is that what most people misunderstand about HR the most, is that it's not another business function that is equally, if not more important than other classical, you know, things we think of as business functions. is is that it that people just don't think about it as that? Like what are other misconceptions that people have about HR?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I mean, I think most people think HR is there to protect the the company. And, you know, ultimately that's not HR's job. I mean, technically, that's why you have a legal function, right? The legal function is there to not eliminate risk but mitigate risk. I don't believe in risk elimination. You can't run a business with no risk, right? So I think it's risk mitigation, but that's that's the legal function's job. HR's job is to accelerate the business strategy through people and through a talent lens. And when eighty-five percent of your P Is human, even you know, even in an organization that's leaning into agentich AI, yeah, there's some costs that's gonna be shifted over to agents, but those aren't free. I mean, we're we're everybody's talking about token tokenomics, right? Everyone's talking about token maxing and moving to open source models so that they're a bit more platform agnostic, right? So, look, everybody's looking at this, you know, very closely. So the costs are still gonna be there, whether it's human or agentic talent. My perspective is HR's job is to accelerate. that right and if we can get from point A to point B because we've got a better lens on talent and how we're going to leverage that talent whether it's a genetic talent or human talent then I think HR has done an effective job. So to me that's all PL driven right there's nothing you you can't exclude HR from it's no longer a cost center if you're helping to accelerate the business strategy.

Dan Korus: Yeah, and you you do hear that a lot. People say, I don't want to go talk to HR because they're they're there for the company, right? They're not for the people. and so, you know, and and maybe there's HR out there that believes that they're they're for the company and not they're for the people. What does it mean to build an HR organization that is people-centric, and that is driving the proper talent that we need, for for any company and is is an organization that is fully supportive. Like if you were gonna build your dream HR function. function, what would be the most important elements, who would be on your team?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I think it'd be a combination of people who have domain expertise with those who also have some level of blended commercial exposure and experience. I mean it's one of the reasons why we've seen some heads of HR who have now become CEOs. They've done tours of duty like myself outside of the function. And I think that blend of both commercial and HR experience is what makes you know the senior sort of HR executives very attractive for the CEO spot. And we're seeing this happen. Like we're seeing it like it it's sort of traditional that the COO moves into the CEO role or the CFO becomes CEO, maybe a little less often in the COO, but know seeing CHROs and CPOs become CEOs, that's because they especially those that have done tours of duty outside the function, they become, I mean, they become like a I sort of sort of a hidden gem in an organization. Because

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: they they they've got sort of both now the the business expertise coupled with, you know, how do I leverage talent to, you know, maximize the business strategy or at least accelerate the business strategy or achieve the the broader strategy. So they're becoming pretty pretty effective. in the corner office or proverbial corner office now that a lot of us are working remotely.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: But yeah, I mean I think that to me it it Having a a people and culture organization that's got a much more modern view on work life, a more progressive view, is is my dream team.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: you know, again, compliance, employment sort of regulations, yeah, we have to abide by them, right? And I think we we do that in spades. We generally sort of keep the company out of hot water. That's that's the behind the scenes sort of invisible work that the HR does.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: But what

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: we do out in front in terms of you know working on the people strategy, understanding sort of the workforce, how it's comprised. And I use a model that is probably no secret to most people if they were listening into this podcast, around making determinations around the capability gaps, right? And determining whether you're going to build it internally, you're going to buy it, or you're going to borrow it. And to

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: me, the the build is Okay, well, we've we've got some talented people in the organization and we need to make the appropriate investments, right? And that could be leaders. I

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: mean, one of the like I I just I I it just blows my mind how many companies still don't invest in leaders thinking that leaders are just gonna show up. And then you

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: know, most of the time they fall short and and the company's sort of pointing the fingers at the people, and it's like, well, you haven't even invested in the leaders. So I

Dan Korus: Right.

Mark Putrus: call that sort of the build capability. Then you've got the buy, obviously go out and find the talent or the borrow, right? And that could be to me sometimes we go out and hire full-time people and then we're now going into a reduction in force. It's not good for the company. It's not good for the people who I call them the survivors, certainly not good for the people who are leaving, when that role should have been filled by a contractor for the next 12 to 18 months. And so Some of this might be driven by regulations, right? There's there's some really tough laws in local jurisdictions that make it difficult to bring contractors on board. But if you do it the right way, and this is where HR can help guide, right? Where

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: it sort of again risk mitigation, we can help if the leaders could get really sort of crystal clear around that workforce plan. And I think that's the value that HR can bring to the conversation, is once we decide whether we're going to do the build, buy, or borrow. the natural inclination may have been to buy, but it's really a borrow is the better answer. We can help guide that and, you know, have those conversations with leaders. And look, leaders don't have to worry about that. They can lean on their HR partners to help them.

Dan Korus: Yeah. And because you have that background in training, you know, before you even got to HR, I think you've seen correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just making an inference here, you've seen firsthand what it looks like to invest in people. So you know exactly that the kinds of skills that are trainable. Sales skills are very their emotional intelligence skills, it's listening, it's intonation, it's being able to have metacognition while you're in a high stakes conversation or being able to keep a a a neutral emotion even though you're facing rejection after rejection after rejection. and so, you know, I think that you could train most people anything as long as they want to learn and you have the time and the resources. So, you know, d has has that impacted your view on the build by Barrow? and you know, how much investment do you think is appropriate for newer leaders? Because I think in the med tech space, a lot of technical people probably getting promoted, right? And people with medical backgrounds, technical backgrounds who are used to the operations side or do have some commercial exposure, and are now promoted into a leadership position where, you know, their their role has changed. And so, you know, are you What does that what does that investment look like to them? how how does your path shape your your philosophy on this?

[15:11] not everyone should be a people leader

Mark Putrus: Yeah, so I I guess I'll start with this. I I do have a philosophy

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: that not everyone is cut out to be a people leader, right? And I think we make an assumption

Dan Korus: Good. Okay.

Mark Putrus: that a domain expert, someone who is excelling in their role, who wants to take the next step,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: automatically should on a career ladder, and that's a whole nother sort of sort of philosophical thing because I don't believe in career ladders. I do, I do

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: believe in career lattices. I think a lot more horizontal movement is helpful. Sort of like those tours of duty I mentioned, right? You can get a lot more exposure and experience through those tour tours of duty. But going back to the the leadership, not everyone is cut out for leadership. And and so one of the things that that you see a lot of organizations still haven't made this pivot, but you know, from a leveling perspective, there is prestige and financial reward that comes on the people leadership track that doesn't come on the individual contributor track. And to me,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: I find that extremely problematic. And so I think organizations who have pivoted who basically say, hey, I'm just going to make up some numbers, just you know, everyone knows sort of a level seven. Management seven and sort of individual contributor seven should be at the same level, same pay

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: ranges, same financial opportunity. And that encourages people who don't have aspirations for people leadership to continue to add value in their capacity. And we don't take on the risk of promoting someone into a people leadership role who doesn't want to be in it. And so that's part of the fundamental problem I think we saw is we were trying to invest in leaders who are

Dan Korus: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: on this leadership track because. That was the only way to progress their career who didn't want to be there. Like I

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: can't tell you how many, when I was in L and D, how many times I would facilitate workshops, and there would be some technical people in that room who had no desire to be there, but they

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: thought that they had to be in order to progress their career. And so we want to invest in the people who really truly want to take on people leadership because it's not for the faint of heart. You

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: have to have a desire and an ambition around it because it is messy. dealing with other humans and you have to you have to work on yourself before you can work on others and so

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: that's an important part of the reflection that is almost absent in every bit of leadership development. When I talk to colleagues and peers and I watch programs, there's so much reflection that's missed. And look I think we see we hear this when we get on planes right put that oxygen mass onto yourself before you put it onto others. We have to

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: make the investment in ourselves and that reflection and really go through some deep understanding of who we are and why we show up the way we do before we go and I don't ever use the word fix, but I've heard people use the word fix, fix others. I mean when we invest and connect with others is really the the way it should be framed. But we've got to work on ourselves.

Dan Korus: Yeah, absolutely. And so what what I wanna know and for someone who's listening and I hope it's someone who Hope hopefully there's a good population of listeners who are affirmed, you know, by hearing this and being like, Yes, thank you, Mark. Like there should be a technical track that is fa recognized financially just as much as other as the people management roles within the company. I strong believer in that. I think Kim Scott talked about that in radical candor too with her all stars and rock stars, right? and so, you know, similar vein there. I'm wondering So you're touching on on self work for people who wanna be people leaders, people who have a passion for it. what does that look like? Like if you were gonna help if you were gonna have a training program for a leader, if you were gonna say, Okay, here's here's the kind of self work that you need to go do, if you were gonna, you know, just go out on a limb and make a blanket prescription, you know, for for some people leaders that are gonna be serving under you or alongside you, w what does the training program look like?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, so I I do think an Maybe I'm a bit biased because I'm also a coach and have

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: some training in this. So I did my coaching certification through Neuroleadership Institute. I'm a huge fan of David Rock and the work there because it's,

Dan Korus: Okay.

Mark Putrus: I mean, years and years and years of science and research. And it's just not coaching frameworks. It's all built on actually how the brain works. And you probably have seen me post on occasion on Substack a lot about uncertainty. And the brain does not like uncertainty. So I'm a huge fan of coaching because I think coaching creates a safe space, especially when you connect with a coach, creates a safe space to do exactly what you just described is investing in yourself and really understanding what are your triggers, what makes you tick. Even like, look, coaches are not therapists. We're not gonna get into trauma, but we certainly can, we can certainly help someone understand what their triggers might be and Why they become sort of inflamed by certain things that may be said in the workplace or how people show up that may be different than theirs, than the the way they show up. And so I think there's there's room for coaching. I'm a huge fan of psychometrics. I think psychometrics give people insights into their preferences. they are not an end-all-be-all, right? Context does shape how we behave in the workplace, and so. I I do think they're just a tool in the Armamentarium. They're a tool to help us understand our preferences and more around energy, right? When we tend to lean into our preferences, it takes a little less cognitive load, a little less energy. And so that's why they are our preferences. Sometimes in the in the workplace, we have to lean into something that is not our preference, takes more cognitive load. It's not that we can't shift, it's not that we can't adapt. I actually think strong leaders. Do adapt, but it it's knowing what those preferences are and becoming more consciously competent. I think it's a real skill that sometimes leaders sort of just go through their day-to-day and they don't even realize they're doing what they're doing. They're doing their their people a disservice, but they're also doing themselves a disservice because now they're not able to manage their managing, they're not able to manage a lot of their energy in in the most meaningful way throughout the day. And so when you know your triggers, you know. you know, when you've got the highest level of energy or when you should tackle some of the difficult conversations or when you might want to dig into some deep sort of work versus maybe some you know lighter, less cognitive intense work, like knowing yourself, then you can diagnose that in others, right? You can ask those important questions of others around, hey, when, you know, can when you reflect on your day, when do you find yourself delivering your best work? And if someone says early morning, okay, carve out space. And you know what? I'll make sure that I don't set up my one-on-ones because that's that's a coveted time for you, right? Those are the things I don't think leaders are doing when they're connecting with their people. It's like whatever's convenient for me, because I'm the leader, I'm in charge, right? and that that's just not the right, right mentality. So again, going back to your question around where do we invest, I think we invest in coaching, we invest in the tools like psychometrics, we invest in mentoring, we invest in programs that really support people in the flow of work. that's why I'm I've been a bit of an advocate for the AI coach, because I think human coaches are limited in terms of their their ability to handle the workload, right? There's only so many certified coaches, right? And typically they're expensive and reserved for the few. I love AI coaching because it democratizes coaching in a really meaningful way. But a good AI coach is going to lean into the human aspects, right? And really recommend that you connect with a human if it's trained well. because I think there are going to be elements where the AI coach has limitations.

[22:46] what the mask at work is actually made of

Dan Korus: Yeah, absolutely. And for, you know, ninety percent or, you know, at least a majority o of the of the work, the AI coach can at least help you create space to reflect. And it can

Mark Putrus: Yeah.

Dan Korus: ask you, okay, what's your week look like? Where are you putting your time? Where do you feel the most creative? And You know, I think for most of us we're going through our career having some idea in our head and we're trusting that, but we're not taking the time to sit down and actually reflect upon that and challenge our our preconceived notions about when we're doing the best work or when we're not. And so just taking like a couple of weeks to journal about that can have such a profound impact on your output and how you show up for others. I'm a big person I block out the like the middle hours of my day. It's my little reset, you know, and I'll either try and get some exercise or I go for a walk or I do some, you know, any sort of like deep work then. but that's that's my reset, right? And I never let anyone I really try not to

Mark Putrus: Yeah.

Dan Korus: let anyone ever schedule over that. and that's just that just works for me. So that way I can have a reset. I can have my morning and my morning looks different than my afternoon and I can structure it better there so I can have more consistent days. So one thing, you know, that you talked a little bit about, I think for leaders is and the coaching is really around knowing the self and your triggers and where you show up and and what you're good at and not good at. the psychometrics is really interesting. I'd love to know more about that. And people being consciously competent about what they're good at and what they're not good at. And so this to me just seems like really solid coaching advice because I think we're asking people to and and fill in the gaps if I'm wrong here, we're asking people to assess their strengths. know what they're good at. We're asking them to be emotionally cognizant of themselves and how they show up and when they're a little bit off or where they're really strong. and then we're asking them to, you know, under the supervision of a coach, be it human or AI, start to work on the gap. That way they can make themselves a little bit more well-rounded. And in doing that work, we're saying, okay, you'll also be able to recognize this in others and be a better coach for your team and understand their strengths and weaknesses so that way you can bring create an environment where your employees can show up and be the best that they're able to be.

Mark Putrus: Yeah, and I think you've got the sequencing right. So you you do start with the fundamental question. And it's interesting because

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: I I I ask this question in interviews. I I typically ask

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: people what's their superpower and what's their kryptonite.

Dan Korus: Okay.

Mark Putrus: and I I love asking that question during the interview process because you immediately get a sense for where they are on their their leadership journey, right? Regardless

Dan Korus: Okay.

Mark Putrus: of and by the way, when I say leader, I'm I I

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: define leader not necessarily as people leader, just leadership skills leadership.

Dan Korus: Right. Period.

Mark Putrus: Leadership qualities, right?

Dan Korus: Yep.

Mark Putrus: and so I asked that question, and so you've got the sequencing, right? It's like, okay, up front, do we know our superpowers? Do we know our kryptonite? And by the way, we all have them. And so this idea that you know this isn't a this isn't a competition. I've got more superpowers, I've got more kryptonite. I mean, it's just ultimately, is there something that sort of stands in your way? And you know, where why are we hiring you, right? and we're hiring people for their superpowers, Because we believe those superpowers will add a lot of value in the organization and and hopefully different than the people on the team. I'm a huge fan of fit, but not necessarily culture fit. I think otherwise we just hire in our shadows. Story for another podcast. So that's sort

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: of the the sequencing, right? Is do I

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: know my superpower? Do I know my kryptonite? And then the next thing is if we don't, well, one tool is that psychometric, right? At least it gives, you know, somebody, especially somebody early career. Who hasn't had an opportunity to really reflect on these, you know, sort of ideas, is the psychometric can give you some talking points to either engage with an AI coach or to engage with your leader who hopefully has some level of maturity and can you know work or one of the coaches from one of the psychometric companies. And so when I think about psychometrics, I'm thinking about things like Lumina Sparks, Insights Discovery, SDI, Enneagram. These are all different types of disk. Although DIS feels a little dated. MBTI feels a little dated. So I started with the more modern tools that I really am a fan of. Those other ones are great, but they're a bit more dated. Lots of research, but a little bit more dated. So and you know, there's a certain level of maturity you need for some of the more sophisticated ones. And so, you know, where you use them on someone's leadership journey becomes important. But that's why you want to talk to someone who's been doing this for some time, who works in professional development or LD. If you're not sure, lean into those resources because they'll help guide you in terms. Of what they think is best for these psychometrics. And then that becomes sort of the breeding ground for becoming, to your point, more consciously competent about who you are and how you show up in the workplace. And then that allows you to then have that coaching sort of conversation with your leader and/or an AI coach or a formal coach in the future. But coach can be your leader, right? If your leader is vulnerable and is also willing to share with you their sort of preferences and you know how. How their energy peaks and valleys throughout the day, you can create a real kind of connection with the leader and your direct report in the workplace. and both parties are now showing up with a level of humility and low ego and vulnerability that allows for a stronger connection. And when things go sideways, that connection is is the bridge. And that's what create like I think part of this you know issue that we have oftentimes with leaders and direct reports is what We're all sort of in the corporate workplace and we're wearing a mask. We've got this armor and we can't it's like you can't penetrate the armor and it's like how can I actually show up at and and deliver my best work when you actually don't know who I am because I'm wearing a mask.

[30:22] inclusion starts at the kitchen table, not the boardroom

Dan Korus: Yeah. What what's that mask made of? What does the armor look like? What are what are we protecting?

Mark Putrus: I I think it's fear it's judgment. It's fear. you know, a lot of my training, like I said, is is neuroscience based and what we know about the brain is it is always in self preservation mode. Right? It's always going to try to protect you. And I think, you know, both physically and emotionally. And so I think it's a protection mechanism. It's the the the more vulnerable we are, the greater levels of connection, but the greater levels of risk. And so it's this sort of brain dynamic around, you know, relative risk in the workplace. And if I if I allow people to get too deep, I I potentially Put myself out there, there's risk associated with that, especially when I don't feel a sense of belonging in an organization.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: And so I think the organizations that do a better job of bringing you know sort of inclusion and belonging to the forefront tend to have more vulnerable employees, thus, greater levels of connection across the broader organization. But when everyone's sort of you know walking around with a mask, by the way, Dan, on a side note, because I wore a mask for a number of years, just being

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: part of the LGBT plus commun LGBTQ plus community and

Dan Korus: Uh-huh.

Mark Putrus: I wore a mask for a number of years. And during that time, I didn't realize until after the fact how gerining it was to you because you're constantly filtering in your head, right? Because you're like, okay, how can I, how can I communicate how my weekend was without really letting people know how my weekend was? And so,

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: how How do I navigate the question around my girlfriend or wife and and how how do I navigate that? Especially

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: when you have you're wearing a wedding ring.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: and so like you're constantly on edge, right? And so

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: the There's like I I I I I I I tell people all the time, if you really wanna understand what it means to wear a mask, go

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: to your LGBTQ plus community and ask them how they navigate to the workplace before coming out. And by the way, coming out is not a one-time deal. We come out all the time. Every time I talk to somebody about my kids, I I typically have to talk about my husband, otherwise they're gonna ask

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: me about my wife. And so to

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: you know, avoid the uncomfortable, do you see the filtering and the mask wearing like it's exhaustive.

Dan Korus: Absolutely.

Mark Putrus: It's exhausting.

Dan Korus: Yeah, absolutely. I have a big problem with workplace aut authenticity and how we frame authenticity because I think that, you know, and and maybe you've seen some of my articles on this, I hate the way that I I actually despise the way that we tell people you need to show up to work and be yourself. because I think it's really unfair to people who are working in an environment that's not safe for them to go be themselves.

Mark Putrus: Yeah.

Dan Korus: I've worked in a lot of different environments where we didn't have leaders who were accepting of the LGBTQ plus community, right? Or of people of different faiths, or people who voted differently. And so, you know, like there's split the human race upon whatever dividing line you want to, and you're gonna find leaders who, you know, are gonna judge you for it. You know, working in science, there's a lot of division based off credentials alone. And if you if you aren't credentialed enough, it doesn't matter like how great you are with people or what your reviews are or what your actual economic impact on the business unit is, you're not getting a promotion. You're just not. so there's a socio economic factor that comes into it too, where you might be the most damn qualified person who could have the best impact on a role at all, but you're just not getting chosen because we've decided that you don't fit our mold. you know, and so I think that the next question that I have, and I really appreciate you, you know, being open and forthright with us about this, because I think it'll help us design workplaces that are better, is when we're when we're designing a workplace that way people don't have to bring as many masks and wear as much armor to the workplace, you know, from the ground up, what does that look like and how do we do it? Because I know that, you know, and there's so much stigma around this, right? There's so much stigma around Psychological safety, and you know, you say some of these words like building building with empathy and building workplace safety, and people just like shut down, right? And people are like, it's the employee's job to just come and you know build bring bring their most authentic self. I have a lot of problems with that. So, you know, I think I think we're both agreed that it's an environment, right? And you have to build you have to build a house that people can walk into, and you know, a house that's safe enough that they can wear less armor and and less mass. And if you don't if you build it right from the foundation up, it people are still gonna show up with more mask and more armor. So how do we how do we build that? Do you have any ideas?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I have a couple of ideas. So I have two thoughts that sort of immediately come to mind.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: Let me start with the more rudimentary. I I think

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: we've always assumed when it comes to creating an inclusive and an inclusive environment and one where people do feel a sense of belonging. Because I think it's the leadership's role to do the former. Belonging is how someone feels, right? So that's the outcome. Inclusion, we've just assumed, only happens at work, and that the leaders are fully responsible. So inclusion is something that is solved at the executive table or in the boardroom. It starts at our kitchen tables. And we've only sort of relied on the workplace. And by the way, do not get me wrong, the workplace continues to make this investment. It needs to. But we need to have these conversations at home. And when we aren't having these conversations, it makes it that much more difficult. And It's just gonna be a longer time frame for the workplace to continue to sort of shape a place where people do feel a sense of belonging. So we need to work on it upstream, but we also need to work on it downstream. That's one. And by the way, let me give you a practical example. We're a two-dad family. I love when I have opportunities to showcase for my, I have a seven-year-old and a five-year-old. And now we've got circles of friends. And they're starting to ask their parents, Eli and Ari, why do they have two dads? And so I love when the parents ask us for support, and we're able to provide some book recommendations that

[37:57] the worst behavior you tolerate is your culture

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: help them understand that families comes comes, families come in different shapes and sizes.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: That's what I mean by this, right? We can help so we need to do this again downstream, just like I'm doing with with my family and friends, right?

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: and we work on this upstream. So that's one. the second thing that comes to mind is The worst behaviors that we're willing to tolerate in the workplace become the definition of your workplace culture. And so, if you, as leaders, allow when you hear about these behaviors that don't align with the organization and you do nothing about it, you're allowing them to persist. And so that becomes sort of the unspoken way that people navigate the organization. And my substack is all about this, right? We have to be more. intentional and we have to say the tough things out loud and as leaders we need to take we have to have leadership courage and we have to take some risks and say, hey, that's not who we are as an organization. And this doesn't align. And it doesn't matter that you're a high potential talent or you're a high performer. This doesn't align with who we want to be as an organization. And we're going to make examples of it. And I'm going to give you another practical example. Some years ago, I was sitting around a table and we were doing a talent review. And this one is specific to gender. And there was a high-potential, high-performing woman operating at the VP level, and we were debating sort of next steps in her career. And someone made a C-level person made a state. That basically gave everyone around the table this impression that she shouldn't be part of this next executive level cohort. It was an L and D initiative and shouldn't be a part of it because we didn't really see her as future C-suite. And I was like, I was sitting there thinking to myself, this person doesn't lead like a man, and there's no other women around this table.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: And is showing up differently, but highly effective in her role.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: And so th there lies part of the problem is if no leader has the courage to say, hey, wait a second, just because she shows up differently and she leads differently doesn't mean she's not actually equally or more effective and she couldn't

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: operate at the next level. We're making a set of assumptions here because she doesn't lead like a man and she doesn't lead like you. that she can't be highly effective. And so again, I did have the leadership courage at that time to say something along

Dan Korus: Mark, you're my hero.

Mark Putrus: alongside a another HR business partner. But

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: we have to put an end to it. And so if we don't say these things, again, those those those conversations define the culture and define

Dan Korus: Yes.

Mark Putrus: the the the talent landscape for that organization. And so again, it comes back to the there has to be leadership courage out there because otherwise things will continue to be the same. And so speaking truth to power, I know it's challenging and I know it can feel like a risk, but if you want to be a change agent change agent in an organization, you gotta take the, take, take the leap.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Man, and that is first of all, very badass of you. I think that's cool. I think a lot of people wish that you were in their organization, you know, speaking up for what's right when it matters, 'cause I think all of us are always kinda scared. And I think we all feel that, right? We feel the sinking in our stomach. We're like, this this isn't right. There's something that's not right here. and then it becomes a question of safety. Right, right back to the Mast and Armour. Are we gonna stick our neck out or not? and so I you know, I think it's I think it's cool to have more examples of sticking out. and also I think that's really great advice to people that you can speak truth to power. And I I was talking with another person a couple days ago, and they were saying their advice for people who are going into management and leadership roles is a lot of leadership is how people feel around you. It's not necessarily what your output is anymore, like your actual technical output. It's how people feel around you and how they respond to your presence and what your presence brings to their day. And so how can you be someone who speaks truth to power and is y you know, blunt with a higher standard? with a with a higher standard and more modern thinking in the workplace without being someone who is you know, off off putting. and I almost hate that question 'cause I think it's like, well, how do you how do you say what's right while while also placating to the people who are saying what's wrong? You know, but how do you I don't know, is is that even a fair question to ask? What's your thoughts on that?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I mean I think this shifts us from the golden rule to the platinum rule, right? The golden rule has always been, you know, treat people the way you want to be treated. And I think the platinum rule

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: is treat people the way they want to be treated, right?

Dan Korus: nice.

Mark Putrus: And so I that that's the that's the shift we need to make, right? Not not everyone needs what you need. And your life's experiences and your lens on work have all been colored by your own experiences. And others, you know, you just assume. I think as a leader, because maybe leaders have created a safe space for you that somebody else has not had traumatic workplace experiences that they bring with them from another organization. And so Look, nobody should have to walk on eggshells. And some of this will come up as you, you know, create that level of psychological safety and presence, you know, for people. But working through that and asking the right questions, I I, you know, it's so often I talk to employees and, you know, I'll ask them, like just give or take, what does the one-on-one sort of distribution of time look like in terms of who's talking and who's listening? And almost all of the time it's about a 75. 25 split, 75 leader talking, 25% direct report. And look, as a leader, you you do need to provide clarity. I'm a huge fan of providing direction and clarity, but the distribution should really be about an 80-20. 80% of the time, you should be as a leader asking questions and talking. You don't need more than 20% of one-on-one time to set direction and provide clarity. And oftentimes the answers to the questions give you clues into You know, are they clear in the direction? Are they focused in the right areas? We're just not asking enough questions. We're not we're not asking And look, not everyone is extemporaneous. And so sometimes it's even prompting people before a one on one to have a really effective conversation. So you gotta know your people, right? Some people are just not as comfortable answering questions on the spot and they want some reflection time. Know that about your people, prompt them in advance, and have a really rich one on one. But that's

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: part of the problem, is we think everyone shows up in these conversations in the same way we do. And if we're really great extemporaneously and they are not, well, how are you shifting as a Leader, because it's your responsibility as a leader to get the best out of your people, which means you have to flex, not them.

[45:32] why your next CEO should come from HR

Dan Korus: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Okay, so I studied up on your philosophy a little bit. I love your sub stack. And I will make sure that it's linked in the comments for so that everybody who's listening can go get a little bit more Mark Peters in their life because I think that it's valuable. especially for people who want to learn and grow and challenge themselves to be better. So I've got a couple more questions well, I've got like five to six more questions for you. Do you still have time or should I cut that down? Are you good? Are we good? Can we keep going? Hell

Mark Putrus: Yeah, really, yeah.

Dan Korus: yeah. All right, let's rock. So One of your things one of the things earlier that you mentioned and one of your big philosophies is really that you know, l like you were saying earlier, the COO and the CFO are usually the natural picks for for CEO, especially when there's a changeover in in senior executive leadership. but the CPO has a lot of strengths in this role. And I know a little bit about your philosophy, you know, tell tell the listeners w why CPO for CEO? What about what skills do they have and what perspective do they have that make them, you know, really great?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I think, you know, chief people officers, CHROs, not not all of them aspire to be a chief executive officer, right? And I think for those who have aspirations, who have done some tours of duty, who understand sort of what it means to own own a number, I think if you couple the commercial revenue, broader business expertise, and you couple that alongside the the the sort of aspects of the CPO role in understanding, you know, sort of talent. And when I think of understanding sort of talent strategy, you know, right person, right role, right time, they show up with I think an incredible amount of of empathy and experience around how to deploy people in a way that will enable the business strategy. And I think a lot of CEOs really struggle with this concept. and I think that that blend of experience is what could make a CHRO a really effective chief executive. because they they have I think both assuming they've got the other side of the house, they've got that nice blend of experience. And so I could see them being, you know, highly effective in role. And you know, the the few that I've seen move into the CEO role seem to be excelling pretty well. and again, they have to have that blend of experience. so yeah, that that's sort of how I would how I would frame you know the the CHRO, CPO sort of moving into that role. The I think the only reason we don't see it as often is just they don't have the ambition to be in that seat.

Dan Korus: So, you know, the the CPO is really good at people deployment and they have the the people skills in order to actually deploy people correctly. you know, and and swiftly and and skillfully in a way that helps maximize their potential in the business. That's what I'm hearing.

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I mean I think again, you know, it's it's it's to me a little odd that and again, I think I mentioned this in the previous answer.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: I I think the only reason we don't have as many CHROs or CPOs in the chief executive officer spot is just ambition. Like I I I just think that some people don't aspire for for for that level of responsibility or that specific role. But They have the experience, right? Assuming they've done some tours of duty on the revenue side, commercial side, sort of broader business perspective, I think they certainly are more than qualified. And, you know, someone who has the talent background. by the way, there are CEOs who've done the CHO job, right? That

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: were not traditional HR folks. They do that

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: tour of duty in the, you know, C-level role, looking after talent because look, 75, 80, 85, depending on the organization. Percent of your PL is people. And so how we deploy people and enable the business strategy through people is meaningful. And so if you've got that sort of exposure and experience and understand it, and especially the dollars and cents, like when when I think about talent, I'm, you know, right person, right role, right time. That's a big part of workforce planning and how we enable talent across the broader organization, right? So think enabling the strategy, the capability building, You sort how do you you know build infrastructure around scale, especially if you're a scaling organization? That's a big part of how a CEO should be thinking. Look, if you're a product-led organization. That's fine. It's all going to be enabled by people. So why not have the blend of both? And so I that's why I think we're seeing a lot more people sort of migrating into the talent space and then potentially moving into the CEO role as part of their own tours of duty. So it's just not the sort of pure pure traditional CHRO CPO, but we're also seeing CEOs that don't have the HR background who actually migrate into HR and then back in as CEO. that that's also another path that we're seeing that's becoming you know sort of more common. but yeah, I mean I think it's just it's just adding texture and color to a CEO's background. And you know quite frankly, I think from an employee experience standpoint, that also is is interesting from a credibility perspective because now you you you you certainly are not going to get labeled as someone who's out of touch with talent.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Absolutely. and I think if if we were to look at kind of the the modern landscape of the workforce, you know, a lot of the statistics that I talk about with people on on on this podcast are really quite grim because there's the engagement is the lowest we've seen it in a really long time. there's a big decline in engagement for, you know, middle and and low senior management and that's having an impact on the job market and on productivity metrics and on on a lot of things. And it just kinda seems like the workforce is maybe not headed towards some acute cataclysm, but definitely towards some sort of a decline where we're gonna need a change in in the corporate paradigm in order to you know, just just become better and I think the companies that figure it out and and do better are probably gonna be leaning more on on CPOs and on a lot of the advice that we've mentioned, right? and and that would probably be my prediction for the future.

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I I have a I have a couple thoughts on this one.

Dan Korus: Yeah, hit hit us.

Mark Putrus: I'm gonna use a bit of an like a a parallel from my early sort of career years. If if we go back to if we go back several years, and do we remember the soy craze? Everybody was about soy for health reasons, right? And we saw

Dan Korus: Yeah, I remember that.

Mark Putrus: a huge migration towards soy-based products. And the milk and dairy industry felt threatened. So, what did they do? They sponsored a lot of studies and came out and said, soy is gonna have a you know a significant impact on your estrogen production, and you know,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: it it was gonna have adverse health impacts without getting into the details, right?

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: And so you see all these studies that are now coming out that are anti-soy, and they're all sponsored by the competition, right? They're all sponsored by the meat and dairy industry. So you question, hmm, alternative mo ulterior motives? Like, look at who's sponsoring these studies.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Right.

Mark Putrus: I kind of have that same reaction to the doom and gloom. It feels

Dan Korus: Okay.

Mark Putrus: like the prediction around the workforce is all coming

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: from the people who have a financial incentive for a doom and gloom.

[53:08] follow the money on the AI doom narrative

Dan Korus: Okay, excellent. I love this take. This is great.

Mark Putrus: So look, everything that we're hearing is being sort of rewound and

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: it's all being driven by the people who have a vested interest in doom and gloom. If you're starting to cut back on your workforce and use agents, all the people who are making the predictions are the ones who are benefiting it from it using token nonx. So look, I Do you think we're going to see a reshaping of the workforce, just like we did

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: going through the industrial revolution? But this doom and

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: bloom is doing nobody any good. It's causing even more issues around mental health, and it's

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: being predicted by the people who have the the the most opportunity for financial gain. So look, the great thing about predictions is they haven't happened yet. And so we can change the trajectory.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: We can come into the trajectory. So why aren't we building a future that it that where we're all thriving? Like, why aren't we thinking about a future where we all thrive rather than just you know, sort of doom and gloom around these predictions? So,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: you know, for all intents and purposes, I said earlier that the brain doesn't like uncertainty, but the one benefit of uncertainty is we can shape a new future and we can shape shape a bright future. And so instead of focusing

Dan Korus: I love that.

Mark Putrus: on these predictions, why don't we put our heads together and use what's unique? talent and you know human the human race and start to create a future that is bright rather than this doom and gloom and you know what are we gonna do because you know nobody's gonna be employed. I mean that's not economically viable anyhow. So we might as well start putting our heads together and figuring this thing out, right? So again,

Dan Korus: I love this take. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: vi a bit of a more optimistic, sort of varied take on it, but I I mean my my point is just look at the source of where the predictions are coming from. You know, we don't hear this coming out of academic institutions like Stanford. we we're hearing this from you know executives who again are playing in the LLM space or the agentic space who have a vested interest to see us continue to have this gloom and doom and see reductions in workforces and leveraging technology in a and again in a meaningful way, but helps them economically.

Dan Korus: Yeah, I love that take and I always think I a hundred percent agree with you and I think it's a great call to action for us to, you know, always look at our sources and follow the the paper trail, you know, the money trail on where the data's coming from. That's extremely important. and we should all do that more. and no one has come on the podcast so far and said, you know, Daniel who's funding these studies and that's such a great point, Mark. so I'm I'm so glad you made it. I I that's awesome. and that that's gonna stick with me for a while because you're right, a lot of the people who are funding these research and are compiling all these datas, these data sets together are people who can y yeah, have have a have a financial benefit and are selling the solution. so you know when when you present the

Mark Putrus: We also know I I was just I

Dan Korus: yeah.

Mark Putrus: was also gonna say like the other thing that people are not taking into consideration is the the

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: Big LLM companies right now are using a go-to-market that is very

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: typical of SaaS, right? We

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: we we bring in and get people into our platforms and then we raise the prices, right? So like right now it's it's pretty inexpensive. But you know, as servers get built and you know, think about electricity to cool, you know, water to cool these servers, like the expenses are gonna start to increase. And especially if you go public, you're now gonna be answering to shareholders.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: So I don't think we're going to see the economics get better. I actually think they'll get worse. And so it's going to be incumbent on organizations to figure out what's the blend of human and agentic talent and where does the sort of aggregate of agentic talent actually become more costly. And I think we so I'll leave because you know we should be sensitive to not naming companies, but we're seeing some companies.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: that are now backtracking and hiring human talent back because they're finding it less costly.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: And, you know, if I was at human talent, I'd be, you know, I'd be apt to be asking for a premium coming back.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. that yeah, that's some whiplash. So here's a question for you, Mark. Do you have any hot takes? Do you have any like leadership hot takes that you want to share with us? Like, do you have any hotter takes?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I mean I think I I think I've shared a couple of hot takes on the on the pod. Yeah.

Dan Korus: You you have and they're all great, by the way. I like all of

Mark Putrus: I mean I think, you know, to me one one big hot take is you know leaders do need to operate with far more clarity in the workplace.

Dan Korus: Okay.

Mark Putrus: we we spend way, way too much time sort of not being clear with people. And again, as much as I love the uncertainty because it it it gives us a a way to pivot, from a general workplace practice perspective, it is probably one of the worst ways to run an organization because the human brain just doesn't do well with uncertainty. And we leave employees with tremendous uncertainty on a regular basis. And then we wonder why. We struggle and why people struggle, and why, to your point, around some of the more recent sort of takes on employee engagement, why engagement is so low, there is just so much uncertainty. And so, look, the one thing that we may not be able to do is predict exactly what's going to happen from 12 or 18 months from now, but we can be clear about what we need to do now, and so. That's fine, right? That's a broader societal issue around not really knowing, right? And and that's just life in general, right? We we we don't know if we're gonna be guaranteed tomorrow. But look, let's give people something to sink their teeth into today. And I think leaders want to have their cake and they want to eat it too. They want to be able to pivot and not make a commitment. And I actually think that makes for a very weak leader.

Dan Korus: Yeah. What does it look like to lead with clarity if you just had like a couple tips? you know, what what does it look like to to to create that clarity for someone? Where is it most where's the biggest delta usually?

Mark Putrus: I think it's to me it's it's because I've had this conversation with so many people. I ultimately

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: think I ultimately think the the the shortcoming here is that we want to treat employees like children rather than adults. And I'll I'll give you a a really good example. W I had run years ago I had run an engagement survey and one of the results of the engagement survey was that there there was not enough communication in in the workplace. Like th there wasn't enough conversation going on, right? And so the response from the executive team at the time, I was not on the executive team, but the response from the executive team is let's formalize this comms plan and like let's, you know, do drip campaigns and sort of all the things that a good marketing organization would do with with customers, right? And communication flourished, right? And then we ran a pulse survey. Communication didn't move. The needle didn't move at all. And

[60:43] clarity is what employees are actually asking for

Dan Korus: Worth.

Mark Putrus: so there's a fundamental reason why. Because when

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: employees are asking about communication, they're asking to be treated like adults, they're asking to be included, and they're not looking for one-way communication, they're looking for dialogue. And that's why employee engagement I think is at all-time lows, because we're not engaging in conversation. And I think some of this is the digital you know, sort of the digital environment in which we're working and you know,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: a lot of the remote work. We're trying to do so much of this via Slack and we're not connecting

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: with people. And we're humans. We need connection. That's what makes us special. And we're not brokering that. We're not intentionally brokering that in the workplace. And we have to slow down. We want to move so fast. But actually, you sometimes need to take two steps backwards to make five forwards. The stronger the relationship, the stronger the connection. You leap forward. And so you're actually not moving as fast. And so I think that's part of the fundamental problem is we're not engaging with the, you know, sort of this intent around. I'm sure you've heard that, you know, listen with the intent to understand not the intent to respond. Leaders feel

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: like they need to respond to everything and they need to have an answer for everything. Just listen, digest it, find the themes, figure out what's important to people. Dialogue, dialogue, conversation, just like we're having. It's it's

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: that's an important part of relationship building. It's an important part of connecting with others. People are adults, they know you're not gonna have the answer. tell me what's on your mind right now. You have to have all the answers. No, you know what? I put this shirt on just like you did. This morning,

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: I put my pants on just like you did. I am not some prophet, I am not some sort of I don't believe in heroic leadership. I I'm not gonna have all the answers. But you know what I can do is I can formulate a plan based on the themes that I'm hearing to see if we can make work better for people or remove the roadblocks and the friction that get in people's way. That I can do, and I can do that relatively quickly given sort of where I sit in the organization as a leader. But I need to be able to get those themes, I need to get to that, and it needs to be more than cursory, right? Sometimes it's systemic. Sometimes it's systemic and we need to remove those systemic barriers.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Man, so you're saying we actually need to go listen to our employees and have dialogue with them? That's kinda insane, Mark.

Mark Putrus: I it it's it's a fundamental I mean we send out these we send out these engagement surveys and we send out these surveys, but we don't talk to people. We don't talk to people.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is just yeah, it's crazy to me. How many how many you know thousands and thousands of dollars, or tens of thousands of dollars in some cases, you know, do we need to spend trying to figure out that we need to actually have a good one-on-one with our people where we should be listening eighty percent of the time? You know, how much how much money does is it gonna cost us in every organization, you know, to to learn that for those that haven't figured that out yet.

Mark Putrus: Look, I'm a fan of engagement surveys. I think you can get some good sentiment analysis. You can it can it

Dan Korus: Yeah. Absolutely.

Mark Putrus: can help you with management effectiveness. But I think what's happened though is we've become over reliant on the reporting and we forgot to have the conversation. And there

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: are some themes that come out and it's like, okay, help me better understand what this means in your context, right? That's the thing, is that we read it and we go, okay, it must mean this. Well, that's through your colored lenses. So just go ask, hey, you know what? This seems to be a theme that's coming up for our team. How is it showing up in your context? What is the what is getting in the way when you, you know, sort of say that there's there's there's a cross one question that's often asked is do you have a difficult time sort of working cross-functionally? Well, that's interesting. it must be our matrix design. Our matrix design seems to be getting in the way. Okay, that's helpful. I can I can now figure out, okay, well, look. We thought as leaders, going matrixed was a good idea. Clearly it's causing issues for the front lines who need to get work done. So maybe we should re-examine it, right? You can

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Mark Putrus: put things together and not assume that your bright idea of creating this matrix was the right. Now I'm not I'm not sort of saying that matrix org designs are not helpful, but if in that context it's meaningful in terms of a theme or the feedback, then you may want to reconsider your org design.

Dan Korus: Yeah, and all that comes from not making an assumption ourselves, but just from asking the people, hey, we we saw this, what did it what does it mean for you? I think that's such a great question to ask because yeah, we get the survey results and we go look at and we make some sort of an inference about what we're actually trying to solve and you know, we collected some amount of data and we w we didn't go we didn't We didn't ask anyone if the data was good or what it meant to them. You know, we didn't prov get additional context. and sometimes it's collected by people who don't have the entire reference frame for the organization. You know, so all of a sudden we're you know, it's the classic banana telephone game where we we had people who didn't know what it's like to be in our organization pull our boots on ground employees about what it what it's like and going on for them, and then that got translated into their language, which got s translated to us, which is now in our language, and we're doing another translation and then bringing it back to them. hopefully, you know, we're crossing our fingers that it's solving the original problem to begin. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: And Dan, I think listening

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: To your informal leaders. Sometimes

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: we automatically assume someone with a senior title is actually the most influential. They're oftentimes not. And so I

Dan Korus: Yeah. Right.

Mark Putrus: I like to get to the folks that I know are informal leaders who may not have

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: the title but are extremely influential, especially

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: when we're doing change management. One of the big misnomers, and you can watch the patterns, you can watch how they bypass the more senior leader. You if you're

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: really intuitive and you just Watch the communication patterns and where how information flows. Sometimes the people with the most senior title are actually not the most influential.

Dan Korus: So I've got a couple more questions for you, is that cool? I love this discussion that we're having by the way.

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I'm I'm here I'm here for ya.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Okay, I got three more and then if, you know, in a couple of weeks we're like, dang, I really want to go talk about that, we can always do a live and we can always do this again. So here's my first question. It's someone's first day of work tomorrow. They're a fresh graduate or maybe they're still in high school, and they're starting work tomorrow. What's your advice for them?

[68:19] advice for first-day workers, middle managers, and the C-suite

Mark Putrus: Yeah, show up with a lot of intellectual curiosity and don't just listen for what is said, but try to figure out what's left unsaid. That'll give you a lot of a lot of insight into how an organization works.

Dan Korus: That's really good advice. I like that. okay, slightly more complicated. We have got our middle managers, and right beside them, hopefully in the same pay band, as our mid-senior contributors, our technical contributors. what's our advice for them?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, this one to me is real simple. Your fundamental role is to develop more leaders, followership and leadership. Right? You should have solid followership. A lot of that has to do with all the topics that we talked about today related to good leadership principles. But your fundamental role is to create more leaders in the organization. And if you do it right, we we won't have this shortage of great leaders. And so your your sole lot in life is not to just drive some PL. Your soul, you're in a middle management role is to develop more leaders.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Man, that's great. This is so pithy and useful. all right, C suite. Lay it lay it on us. Who what what about the top, Mark? What's your advice for them?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, I think it comes down to this idea of clarity. I I fundamentally believe we have so much wasted energy, organizational energy, on what I call realignment meetings. I mean, how many alignment meetings do we need to have? Like all these 30-minute alignment meetings, if we would just be clear up front, we wouldn't have to do these alignment meetings. I I can't tell you how many times I've been invited to these alignment meetings. I'm like, yes, I think meetings are important in the workplace, but if we could get crystal clear and then when we come out of these meetings, memorialize what we agreed on and then measure against those, it's very clear. That they're tied together, and you won't have to have these constant sort of re-engage, like it's fine, things change. And if you want to say, Hey, you know what? We aligned on this, but we need to make a change, fine, meet. But to meet on the same topic to get alignment because people didn't that that's a that's a communication issue, that's a direction issue, that's a clarity issue. And so, my advice to senior executives is watch what unlocks in an organization when you get really crystal clear and People aren't trying to guess what you want.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Man, that's good. I like that. That's fresh. Cool. Do you have any other general advice or anything you want to leave folks with?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, you know what? We spend a lot of time at work. And so

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: my advice to people is if you're not having fun, if it's not energizing you, if it's not giving back to you what you're putting into it, it's time for a new opportunity. And I I I know that comes from a place of privilege. So I say that with the utmost humility. I know not everyone has a choice, and I know it is a tough employment market at the moment, but don't give up and just know that there are people out there who will give you sage advice on how to navigate a tough situation, leverage that network, leverage on people who are willing to pay it forward. I believe in in in karma. I was on a podcast not too long ago and somebody asked a question and I was really touched by the question. I didn't get a chance to answer it. So I private messaged them on LinkedIn and said, hey, you know what I really appreciate you attending this this podcast. I really appreciate your question and I want to lend a helping hand. And I scheduled

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: a meeting. I just had this meeting this last Wednesday and I gave them what I thought is some advice on how to get their foot in the door in an opportunity they're really struggling, struggling with. And so look, anytime we can pay it forward and help others, especially when they're really struggling and they're having to wear a mask and you can like I I like gravitate towards those people because I really want them to feel a sense of belonging. Because when you do feel it, you never want to go back to how it feels

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Mark Putrus: to have to wear a mask.

Dan Korus: Mark, that's great. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that you're out there. Then this is honestly like a really great podcast. I I really appreciate your perspective. you've challenged my own perspective a number of times during this podcast, and so I feel like I've learned a lot, which is great. I love that. This is why I have so much fun doing this, is just to meet cool people, and learn something. I think it makes us all better. yeah, this is why I love doing this. I really appreciate it. Yeah, where can

Mark Putrus: Yeah, thanks for having me, man. I really appreciate it.

Dan Korus: where can people find you, Mark? for people who listened to this and was like Mark Peters is the man, which he is, where where can people find you?

Mark Putrus: Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. I do post occasionally on LinkedIn. I'm haven't posted as often there. I do post on Substack quite a bit. and

Dan Korus: Awesome.

Mark Putrus: I'll also respond to notes that sort of, you know, sort of draw my attention in.

Dan Korus: Great.

Mark Putrus: and then I do I do produce some articles on on Substack when I can find the time to actually sit down and behands the keyboard. So I'm probably not as regular as some of the other Substackers, but

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: yeah, find me at Substack. My Substack is called The Unspoken. And my ultimate sort of goal is to talk about all the things that are left unsaid at work that need to be said out loud and just showing up with leadership courage. But yeah, I really really love you know loved sort of being on the podcast and you know sharing my thoughts and giving you some hot takes on occasion.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Good job. Hey, we did it, man. This is good. Cool. Great. How'd that go for you? Cool.

Mark Putrus: Yeah, it's good. It's good. Very casual, very conversational. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Sweet. Yeah. this was great, Mark. I really loved your thoughts. This is awesome. I really appreciated it. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: Yeah. Yeah, thanks for helping me. Thanks for thanks for seeking me out.

Dan Korus: Yeah. No, seriously, man. You're you're awesome. I love the takes. I think that the HR field is misunderstood. I love your take and really was glad that I got to ask about, you know, why CPOs should be in the top spot 'cause I think they have this, you know, perspective and mindset that is really beneficial. Right. And I think the people should be coming first. and if we do that right, then the operations happen well after. So I'm I'm really glad that I got to ask you about that. It's really important.

Mark Putrus: Yeah, like I agree, Dan. Like if we if we lose our humanity at work, what do we have?

Dan Korus: Mm hmm. Yeah. We're fucked. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: Like that like I don't Yeah, like I don't get it. Like this idea I don't know. I I just I'm struggling with this concept of this doom and gloom. I that's why I have a

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: bit of a a different perspective.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: maybe I'm just tiring. I might I might be getting tired of

Dan Korus: That's okay.

Mark Putrus: that of that narrative. Because I I think

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: it does nothing for people. Like what

Dan Korus: Right.

Mark Putrus: what what outside of the few people who benefit, like what for the broad Are good that does nothing for us, right? so I don't know. Economically, what in a world where you have the employment market completely collapse, what economics do you have to like you don't need an LLM if you don't have humans working? Like, you know what I'm saying?

Dan Korus: Right. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: agents people don't want to. I mean, I I can't tell you how many people have said that they are now interacting with agents on a more frequent basis, and it's very frustrating, they just want to talk to a human. because

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Mark Putrus: it's also something we crave.

Dan Korus: Mm. We need it. We need it as people. Yeah.

Mark Putrus: We do, we do.