The Canary in the Coal Mine: Dr. Michael Leiter on the Real Cause of Burnout

[0:00] meeting Michael Leiter and the scope of this conversation

Dan Korus: How are you today, Michael? Do you like do you prefer Doctor Lighter? Okay. Michael's okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: don't know. But no. No. That that works better. Yeah. Sort of fits it fits into life a bit better. Yeah.

Dan Korus: I just I just want to be respectful if I can.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay. yeah, for sure.

Dan Korus: where are you based at?

Dr. Michael Leiter: I'm in Nova Scotia, Canada. I'm at a small town on the Bay of Fundy. It's a little university town. And it's yeah, it's nice up here. It's yeah. Nice cool morning.

Dan Korus: my gosh. Yeah. That sounds beautiful. What's the weather like this kinda time of year?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Well, this morning it was a cool morning. It was barely, but was low probably low 50s when I went out and played golf early this morning, so

Dan Korus: good for you.

Dr. Michael Leiter: It was probably low fifties at that point. Now it's probably a sweltering, you know, seventy-five degrees out there right now. so it's been it's been a bit

Dan Korus: Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: hotter of late. It gets sort of it's muggy here. It doesn't have to get very

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: hot to get uncomfortable. But we're

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: sort of moving towards autumn now as we're getting towards the end of August. So it's

Dan Korus: Nice.

Dr. Michael Leiter: starting to cool off a bit already. So that's nice. I think yeah, yeah.

Dan Korus: And are you a mm-hmm?

Dr. Michael Leiter: And you're in you're in New Mexico.

Dan Korus: Correct. Yeah, nice. Yeah. Yeah. It's

Dr. Michael Leiter: So a whole a whole different a whole different thing going on with weather for you. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Korus: actually quite nice. We're high enough up in the mountains that we have very cool nights.

Dr. Michael Leiter: good. All right.

Dan Korus: and we have hotter days, obviously but it cool it still cools off at night. And I think we're looking at the weather patterns, we're supposed to have a big winter, or at least that's what they say.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay.

Dan Korus: but it was a crisp morning. I've got my coffee right here. I put some maple syrup in it for you. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay. Okay. great. There you go. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah, I learned that the last time I was in Canada.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Uh-huh.

Dan Korus: Yeah. That's great. so what what's work look like for you da free these days? What do you what are you doing for work? If anything.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I a bit. Like I just got back from doing some talks and workshops in Australia in Sydney

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and Melbourne. So I got back a week ago from from that trip. otherwise

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I I yeah I'm working sort of some now and then. doing

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: talks and doing a lot of mostly work mostly it's writing rather than

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that kind of stuff. but I do, you know, like yeah, subworkshops and and conference talks and that. kind of thing.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Awesome. well I've got a list of questions. I've got a bunch of questions. I've got yeah, this is this is Fox. Do you have animals? Do you have animals, Michael? Okay. Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: And you've got a cat. I says Fox. no, no, no. At this point we have no don't have animals, but yeah, I th I do like a cat, though you're a good animal. Good, good companion.

Dan Korus: Yeah, I've got I've got a cat and two dogs right now. so I've got a a a

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay, okay.

Dan Korus: miniature farm in the works.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, yes, yes, they keep you busy. Yeah.

Dan Korus: I know, I know. And my my dogs love to chase the cat, so whenever I'm at my desk, she

Dr. Michael Leiter: okay.

Dan Korus: just this is kinda like our time together. You know? so you'll have to share me with her, just so you know. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay, right. Yeah, it's all right. So right. So so what what's our scope? What are we or how long we gonna talk? Who's our audience? Give me a little bit of that, yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah, let's do it. so we can talk. I'm I'm shooting for an hour. We can go under over that. if

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay. Uh-huh.

Dan Korus: you don't like talking to me, you're welcome to leave it anytime. yeah, just just so you know. Yeah, absolutely. I won't I won't judge you at all. I think that if if we need longer, I have longer. So I have almost as

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay, there you go. Good. That's good to know, yeah. Okay. Okay.

Dan Korus: much time as as you want.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay.

Dan Korus: and I think that although I don't love editing longer episodes that are like longer than two hours, I've done it before. So Yeah, no. Well Alright. We'll shoot. We'll shoot for an hour. We'll shoot for an hour.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I I thought I no, we're not we're not going over two hours, let me tell you. I think an hour would be fine. There there really isn't that much that needs to be said. Okay.

Dan Korus: so that's the scope. or at least the time domain. So I own I started a company a little while ago to teach emotional intelligence skills to leaders. And Primarily I wanna I like teaching emotional intelligence skills to leaders who have technical backgrounds. So people who are really smart, people who want to make a difference in the world, in and be innovative in in their way and didn't necessarily get a lot of emotional intelligence training or many opportunities to. So that's that's my passion. With that, this podcast and the things I write about, I don't think we write in the same way. I'm a very small writer, very small audience. My audience is just for leaders. So anyone who considers himself a leader wants to grow as a leader. Anyone who wants practical tools for leadership. So that's that's who we're that's who we're talking to. I think I think all leaders. And I think that I'm super glad that you're here today. I think that from everything I've read of yours and everything I know about you, I think you've got a lot of really awesome things to say. And I think we throw around a lot of words about, you know, burnout and how to fix our organizations and, you know, what leaders could be doing better or what individuals could be trying to do to take agency in in their careers and there aren't enough practical skills and tools from people who know. It's my read.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay.

Dan Korus: so and we don't We don't have to you know, we don't have to solve world hunger on this podcast. yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: clap.

Dan Korus: I just so I was I I was hoping we could just get to know you a little bit, 'cause I've listened to some of your other podcasts in preparation for this and I still don't feel like I know who Michael is and where he's from and like where you grew up and how you got into burnout. So I was wondering if we could if we could start there, if you're cool with that.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Sure Sure, I don't yeah, where I grew up doesn't have too much to do with how I got onto burnout, but we can we can start there. Okay. okay. Yes.

Dan Korus: Alright. Yeah. All good stories start at the beginning. Yeah. Cool. So where'd you grow up?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Hmm. When I grow up. I grew up at Williamsport, Maryland, on the

Dan Korus: Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: to the to to where the Chesapeake the yeah, yeah, anyway on the Potomac River, where the Connecticut Creek goes into the Potomac River. That's basically

Dan Korus: Well.

Dr. Michael Leiter: a small town near what's called Hagerstown, which is a bit bigger, which is now sort of the intersection of Interstate 81 and Interstate 70 is where

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: it is on that kind of map. So yeah,

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that's that's that's that's where I grew up. And

Dan Korus: Nice.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I yeah, sort of it somehow ended up in in Nova Scotia, but I always yeah, mystified.

[7:22] from family therapy to the space between coworkers

Dan Korus: Okay. What was it what was it like growing up there?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Growing up there, it was it was nice. It was again where we were was a was a small town of you know just five thousand people or something like that. So it was like small town life and and you

Dan Korus: Yeah, that's tiny, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: know, a little schooling, you know, people and it was

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: it it and Yeah, just running very much outdoors most of the time as a kid. And

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that was that was a very that was it was very fun and it was a very nice place to be. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Is that why you've ended up in sort of a an outdoor area as well? I don't know Nova Scotia too well, so is it is it a big city? Is it Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Right. Right. No, no. No, this town here is still it's less than five thousand people and it's

Dan Korus: Okay, cool.

Dr. Michael Leiter: like it's it's not big enough to have a stoplight. It's just

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: it's it's it's a small town. Nova Scotia

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: is a d the biggest thing like a city here is Halifax, which is about three hundred thousand or something. So and then you've

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: got to go to get much bigger, you gotta go about you know, more than five hundred miles to get to Montreal. And so

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: it's a l a lot of trees, a lot of trees and lakes. And anyway, so

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: yeah, it's it's I think it's it having grown up in a small town, I know how to I know about living in a small town where you have to you have to look after your own entertainment

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and act you you have to you have to run it yourself a lot more. It there's yeah, it's

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: it's it's it's much more loosely structured in that way. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah, yeah. And and do you like that sort of life? It sounds like you're a big you just love the nature and being surrounded by nature

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's really nice. I mean, I do like going to cities.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Like I was I said, I was in Sydney and Melbourne there for the last couple of weeks and I really liked the life of being in a city for a while and then I like leaving it. Yeah. so

Dan Korus: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that's that it's it's it's a nice balance that way. But for the day to day life, the fact that it's very quiet at night and You can walk to most places that you want to do and it's not a lot of traffic. my most of my life I had a you know, a one kilometer commute. So like a little over half a mile was my commute from home to work. And

Dan Korus: Wow.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that's that's that that takes a lot of grief out of your life, potential for grief out of your life.

Dan Korus: Yeah. I we're we're not even ten minutes in, we're already getting really solid life advice. Cut out the commute. I love that. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay. I got the clear yet.

Dan Korus: Yeah. I've never been a big commuter either. I love being a couple minutes from work. I think that it's just

Dr. Michael Leiter: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

Dan Korus: so special, right? it's really nice. so how where did you've got you're you're a doctoral. Tell tell us about your education a little bit.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Education. I got a I did an undergraduate degree in psychology at Duke University.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I got a master's at Vanderbilt University in clinical psychology. And then and and then also then more of that at the University of Oregon to get the PhD. But then at my focus there was on family therapy, but when I started working in at a residential mental health facility here in Nova Scotia,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: when I that I came to for a year and stayed for decades. but while I was working there, I got interested more it like family therapy is all about the relationships between people. You don't

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: focus that much on what's going on deep in people's psyche. You look at what's going on between people, what's the space in between people as where the problems are and where the solutions are. And you could see that in a workplace as well. And I sort of shifted over to doing work psychology in that world, the organization being much more interested again in what's going on between people and the fact that you could just watch it happening rather than trying to guess what people are really feeling deeply. You could just watch how how are they actually behaving with each other as

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: being a much more interesting and solid basis for which to do your work. And then see can you can you change that? Can you actually change the pattern of how people are interacting with each other? And that becomes then the challenge. Yeah.

Dan Korus: I guess yeah, so I guess for family psychology you can't necessarily go home with the family and sit in the living room and watch talk, right? You can't you can't Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: No, you bring them in and you watch the problem. But the the fact is, I I guess with a lot of that, if

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: if they if they're really having problems, they really can't fake good. If they could fake good, they would be much better. So if they're really having serious problems, you're gonna see them in minutes.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: So it's

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: not like the you you're gonna miss their deep secret. No, it's gonna be you you're gonna see it right away.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and and and workplaces are like that too. You just you don't need to be there that long to sort

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: of pick up on you know what's happening. You you need some more solid kinds of psychometric instruments if you want to actually get quantitative data and and

Dan Korus: Uh-huh.

Dr. Michael Leiter: use that as a basis for research. But you can see what's going on pretty readily.

Dan Korus: And you said if if families can't fake it, families can't fake it being good. And if they could that they would be better. So does that mean that workplaces can fake it?

Dr. Michael Leiter: workplaces well they they can fake it longer. There's the kind of parameters that are

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: managing people at work. Like people have to people fake it a lot at work because well, they gotta hold them to their job. There there's a lot at stake. And and and most and and and and most people there are adults and have a bit and

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and and the emotional pull. you know, at work is there. It's the but it's not as

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: deep, it's not as, you know, just sort of critical as it is at on the family level. So you you've got you know, things can be the the the the surface you you've gotta hang in a bit longer to f the to to figure out what's going on.

Dan Korus: Yeah. So, you know, not so few people go and get a a doctoral degree. You know, and take it takes a long time in your life to wanna go commit to that. And why why psychology? Why clinical psychology? What drew you to that?

Dr. Michael Leiter: psychology. back at the beginning, I don't it w I but just being interested in relationships among people and just finding

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that there were you know the classes that I took, you know, way back as an undergraduate long, long ago, that

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I just found that was the more intriguing kind of things. I tried out various, you know, directions before I

Dan Korus: Yeah.

[14:44] how a cold call to Christina Maslach started 40 years of burnout research

Dr. Michael Leiter: settled on that. It was that and also it fit with you know. my skills in terms of on the one hand, they you know, analysis, the analytical side of me, as well as you know, wanting to write things out. What are the ideas, what are the kinds of things. And

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: because what what I read mostly, sort of particularly these days, is really I I I write I read fiction much more than I read anything to do with psychology or any of that kind of stuff, because

Dan Korus: huh. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: it gives better stories about people and how they are approaching things, how do you make sense of their worlds?

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: And you sort of get that laid out. And that I what I find is sort of more intriguing and what I want to follow up on with people is how are they making sense of this and how is their actions fit into that world as they've created it for themselves.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Can I ask kind of a side question really quick?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Sure.

Dan Korus: Yeah. So if do you read a lot of fiction, I and I see you know, you got a lot of you have a very impressive bookshelf behind you, Michael. if you could recommend one or two fiction books to someone that you've really enjoyed, do you do you have some favorites that you've read recently and just thought were like, Man, these are these are really great characters?

Dr. Michael Leiter: my, I wasn't quite ready for that. But let me think, well, what I'm reading right now,

Dan Korus: Sorry.

Dr. Michael Leiter: what what I'm reading right now is got so old, so young. Maybe it's the other

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: way around. That's a nice that's following a group of your friends from university around soon after you know the 2000 and something. and then every every few years they get together and it's sort of tracking them up over those 20 odd years. during that time. It's a good story. It's a it's a very it's a it's it's it's a nice tale there.

Dan Korus: So old, so young.

Dr. Michael Leiter: So old, so young. Yeah. It's a it's it's it's a nice read. It's an easy read, but I found that's that's what I'm reading right now. And I found this is

Dan Korus: Nice.

Dr. Michael Leiter: really this is a good one. Yeah.

Dan Korus: That's really special. Yeah. Okay, so You transitioned from the family therapy to looking at the relationships in the workplace. And it sounds like

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yes.

Dan Korus: the relationships in the workplace were a little bit more interesting. There was maybe more going on there. there's a little bit more nuance, even though the holes left behind in people weren't as big, there was there was still a lot of meat to unpack in terms of the relationships in the workplace. Is that about right? Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah. That's about right, yes.

Dan Korus: Yeah. And you've been doing that since.

Dr. Michael Leiter: doing that since well i guess yeah again the sort of pivotal thing in terms of where my work and research went was back in the 80s reading christina maslak's and susan jackson's first article about job burnout and said this is what's going on with these people that i've been

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you know intriguing and trying to get different angles on i said they've got it worked out and so I read that and then I just out of the blue phoned Christina Maslak at Berkeley and said, Hi, hi Michael, I've got a sabbatical year coming out. Can I come work with you for a year? And she

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: said, sure, I've got an office right here. You could come work here. And so we've been working

Dan Korus: That's fantastic.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and writing together ever since then. So that was that got me into the track of working on job burnout and how that's how to make sense of it, how to work with the idea.

Dan Korus: Yeah. And and you've been publishing in in burnout ever since, right? Ever since the eighty this has

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah.

Dan Korus: been this has been your domain.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yes. Yes. They the the book right over my my shoulder is the burnout challenge, which is our latest from a couple of years ago. But we've been

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: we've we've been we've been working at it over that time, yeah.

Dan Korus: Congratulations.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah.

Dan Korus: I think you have five plus books on burnout and many more scientific articles along the way as well, right?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, lots of those, yeah. COS and academic, you pr you crank out those articles and then and hope that somebody reads them. Yeah. And apparently somebody read them, so yeah. Okay. Okay.

Dan Korus: Yeah yeah. Yeah. I've I've read I think they're great. I think they're all really great. I think I think burnout's a really interesting subject and I I would love to talk more about it because I know we've got a lot there. I think a couple things I'm just wondering is Well I got two questions here, so What's kept you on burnout all this time? You don't maybe it's changed over the last like forty, you know, odd years. Almost fifty, right? Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: yeah, it changed it. Yeah, it's it's it's a kind of problem that we I mean, one it's sort of new pretty early. This isn't going to go away fast. This is something we can work on. It it is complex.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: It is the fact that it is a really fundamental kind of human experience to have this, you know, to have sort of frustrations and overwhelmness and life and that combination of being exhausted and cynical and discouraged is a a cluster of experience that is is very human. And that that that to me is that where we're onto something there, and then that it is inexorably tied to the work environment and to the whole framework in which people are working. So it's it's it's something that's very tied to place and activities and process of what's going on at work. It's not just, it's not this interpsychic thing that people somehow develop on their own. It is a it it's a it's a relationship crisis between people and their workplace and the people within their workplace. And that's an intriguing kind of thing. And then trying to get what are the conceptual models you can use to make sense of it. And and then on the analytical side, like what are the how do you crunch the numbers? How do you put together the data in a way that gives you more insight into what's going on. People do in workplaces all around the world do scADs of surveys and gather data and they they really do a very superficial job of making sense of what it's telling them. So there's a lot

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: of lost opportunity in those things. And that was just something I developed. I an acad was just squeezing out what was in there and coming up with a different angle on it. So you could get get more of a depth on what people are about and what's this burnout thing about at work.

Dan Korus: Okay, I have one more quick question and then I want to dive into this. People introduce you as, you know, an international expert on burnout. I would probably hasten to agree, but do you think of yourself as an international expert? Always wondered. You know, like

Dr. Michael Leiter: Well, all that, yeah, I think I know a lot about I know more about it than most people do, just because I spent a whole lot of time with it. International, well, I've done

Dan Korus: Yeah. That's a humble way to say that. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I've I've worked on it. I've I've in in in Europe and and Australia and the US

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and Canada. So and so that's pretty international. you know, and the

Dan Korus: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Michael Leiter: thing about I well, my big focus has been healthcare and

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Partly, I mean, one, they're interested in the issue. And secondly,

[22:07] burnout is not an individual problem

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: again, I I live in a sparsely populated part of the world where the big organizations are hospitals. Like th there aren't big factories or anything like that in my part of the world. If if you go to a big organization, it's probably a hospital that has employing,

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you know, thousands of people.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and so that became my focus for research. And it turns out that Hospitals around the world are much more like hospitals than they're like anything else. Like, you know, they're

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: different, but they're much more like hospitals than like anything else. And they're

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: all concerned with this burnout issue. And so it became an opportunity to work in different parts of the world. And I liked that. I liked through my career being able to travel to bu you know the the the lovely thing in universities where you get a sabbatical year and be able to go to another part of the world.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: And plop yourself down and find out, well, what's going on with these things there? And again, that's where, you know, after a number of years, a lot of years here, I've wrapped up in Canada and then had four years in in Melbourne at that Deakin University to be able to just settle into a city and see how its healthcare system is working in that way. So it's

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, it's it does that's very much international and yeah, I know a bunch about burnout. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. is there is there pressure that comes with that? Or do you feel like there's not a lot of pressure and you just get to chase your curiosity and work at the speed of you know, your writing and your imagination or

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah. Well yeah, pretty much. 'Cause you know, when I was a full time academic, I mean I

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: would I could you know and what what my approach was working. So I could get the grants

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and I could publish the articles. And so

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you know, I mean it was it y you had to really pay attention and put make a lot of effort to do it, but it was working.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: And and so that was so it's it's but It was yeah, it w there was pressure, but it was it was I was managing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Korus: That's awesome. All right, cool. yeah, I was just I'm just curious. I mean, I've never been a world expert in something and I don't think a lot of people get that opportunity, you know, and so I'm just I'm just I'm just wondering, like, ooh, that sounds like a lot, you know, that sounds like a a burden to bear.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, yeah. well yeah, you have to do podcasts and things like that all the time. Keeps happening. Yeah, that kind of thing. It just happens. So you you

Dan Korus: Yeah, with with young whippersnappers who wanna know what your childhood was like. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: learn you the you you roll with it. You just roll with it. That's that's what you gotta do. Okay.

Dan Korus: that's too funny. All right. let's talk let's talk about burnout. So I think one of the biggest misconceptions that I've seen, I don't know if you've seen a bigger one, tell me if you agree with this, is that burnout is just, you know, something that can happen in a lot of different domains in life. and it happens on the individual level because of the individual. It's a closed system within one person. You know, and I think that's at least from the the pop culture that I consume and and and with the pop culture that gets put in front of my eyeballs, you know, that's I think that's kinda what they want us to believe, right? And I think that just because then they can commodify it, you know, and and sell a solution or

Dr. Michael Leiter: Mm. Yeah.

Dan Korus: you know, you know, somet something like that. And I I think that's just kinda it. And You know, obviously having read your work and from what you've told us so far, that's not true, right? It's a relationship between people and their work. Do you think that's the biggest misconception that people have about burnout?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, I think that's that's very big. It's there. I think I mean it's just one it's sort of the, you know, classical medical model kind of a view of the world where if if there's a problem, it's it's inside of the person. And and they they they locate it it's a perspective that locates problems inside rather than between people. And so that's sort of the the first kind of piece there. And it's also I mean part of it i People also are trying to s sell product or or or get across

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: the idea that they have some solution for individuals. But individuals,

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: they like the it's comforting to think that there's a way I can get a handle on this all by myself. I don't need to call

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: upon anybody else. I don't need to acknowledge that I'm experiencing this kind of you know, exhaustion or cynicism in my work. I I really don't want to talk to anybody about that, but I would

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: like to get control of that myself. So there is a and and and so you can comfort yourself with saying, well, this is an internal problem. It's just me. If I can just organize myself and be a bit more, you know, vigorous or or what or or or focused, then I'll I'll be able to get past this. And so

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Great.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I think that that's a comforting kind of idea. But it it's it it to me it doesn't fit the situation. Like it basically it does You know, everything as you as you look at it and dig into it more deeply, it's it's very much tied to the the way things are going at work. And if you change things at work in a significant kind of way, it makes it makes a difference like that. So that is yeah, that that that's you know, that's the that's the piece. And and and it is really the big question is how do you get a leverage on this and and working on it. like an individual problem is not going to give you much leverage.

Dan Korus: So now that we've dispelled the myth, or done our best to for whoever listens to this. I you know, in in my work I'm always surprised at Well let me let me start again. I think that a lot of people haven't defined burnout for themselves and they think of it as general tiredness. Right? Like if if you, Michael, were just gonna define burnout for everyone and you know, tell tell us what it is, how how would you describe it? What is it?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Well, I guess yeah, just on this issue of definitions, one of the little catches there is that

Dan Korus: yeah. huh.

Dr. Michael Leiter: when you know, Christina Maslak or Freudenberger, way that way back at the very beginning of this,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: they didn't coin the word out of thin air. People who were working in healthcare and social work and whatever were using the word. The word was out there in the general population, it was just a word.

Dan Korus: Uh-huh.

Dr. Michael Leiter: And then it was, well, what are these people talking about? And then taking that, interviewing them, and eventually develop like the MASLAC burnout inventory

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: based on that. And that then defines it in a more rigorous kind of way. And and

Dan Korus: Right.

Dr. Michael Leiter: so that but but when people but people were using the word already, and

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and the word sort of means what people want it to mean. I mean it like

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: language works like that. Like people come home and say, I was really depressed about whatever. It doesn't mean That they're clinical depression, clinically depressed and need to go on antidepressants. It means

[29:29] what burnout actually is: exhaustion, cynicism, loss of efficacy

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that they felt sort of sad or overwhelmed or by something. Like it's just the way people talk. So

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: people use the word burnout just to mean I feel tired. Like

Dan Korus: Right.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that's not a big problem as long as the people they're talking to all agreed. Yeah, that what they mean in this context of using that word

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: is means that they feel tired. Now, again, the the so, but the more precise definition you use, you know, in order to do science on these things is that burnout is this combination of exhaustion. Exhaustion that's goes on for an extended period of time. It has this quality that comes with one of the items is I feel tired before the workday even begins. So it has that kind of not that you at the end of the of working all day you feel tired. Like that's not problem you should feel tired you've been working all day otherwise you're sort of clued out of yourself so

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: yeah though it's it's tired before you even get started kind of tired is the particular quality and that is combined with cynicism a drawing back emotionally tr disengaging yourself from the work situation trying to be separate from it and then the third piece is this lack of efficacy and sort of really discourage that. So you're losing confidence in yourself as well and your abilities and your capacity to do things well. So it's that combination. And it's nice that the again, the World Health Organization, when it officially

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: defined burnout a couple of years ago in its manual, used exactly our terms to do that. So that that is the definition that's there. That's the piece we're working with. And it also agreed, that's not a disease. That's a condition that have of people at work, basically,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: was where it put that. It it was put in its book that it classifies diseases and it made it explicit that this is not a disease. It

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: is this situation of people at work. It made it, it's like parallel to chronic unemployment, which is a situation of people vis-a-vis work. So That kind of piece is where we there. So to me it's yeah, that's that's the definition that we work with. It's those three things together.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Tired before you start work, starting to feel cynical, and having some some cynical some cynicism in withdrawing, and then not believing that your efforts can manifest positive results. So have those three right? Yeah. And Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, that's the combination. Yeah. Which is a much darker place than just being tired. Like being tired. If you love your work and you think you're doing great things, but you're really tired, that's that's a problem because you're really tired and you should try

Dan Korus: Right. Right.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you gotta find a way. But it's a much more straightforward problem, which means you've got to get a better balance of recovery, rest resources, and the and the demands. Like that's gotta get a better balance. But when you throw in cynicism and a lack of confidence in yourself, you've got a much heavier l you know, weight to lift here.

Dan Korus: Okay. So, burnout being defined by what we feel and and are experiencing, right?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yes, in that way, yeah.

Dan Korus: But it's a relationship between people and the workplace.

Dr. Michael Leiter: It's driving it. Yes.

Dan Korus: Yeah, so how would how would we define and I I I I think I know the the five and six domains of that you guys have categorized in in the workplace.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Mm. Yeah.

Dan Korus: but you know, for people who haven't read some of your work, you know, how would you define work burnout from like a workplace perspective? What are what are the precursors and what's going on on the workplace side that would lead someone to this?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Right. Yeah. And I said we've talked about these six areas of work life and they have their

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and and sort of again the the the the lead one is is sort of work overload, sort of a you know, unmanageable kind of workload. And that's really tied into the exhaustion in the first instance. it's there. But then really an even a more fundamental way is this a sense of control. a mismatch on control is I think smart of that's a very foundational piece of the model because if if you have control, you can start managing that level of, you know, how fast and how many demands you have to take on. And do you have any choice about that at all? And to

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: the extent you can or can you can exercise choice on any of these pieces, then you're going to be less vulnerable to burning out. So control

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: is a particularly important one there. But then we also talk about the balance of rewards. is it intrinsically satisfying? Are you getting, are you, you know, getting paid enough? Are you is is it is it something that's getting you really positive feedback? Community is really important, your connection with colleagues, your relationship with your manager, all those kinds of pieces. So community fairness in general overall, being treated fairly, but also seeing that. The people around you are being treated fairly, your your clientele is being treated fairly. That sense

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: of justice and fairness characterizes when that's out of balance. that really does drive the cynicism and discouragement very much. And then we sort of the more global thing we put it together is values, the idea that my values and my employer's values are alike. If the idea that the more your working well, the more you're also furthering what you believe in. And the more you're furthering what you believe in, the more you're really contributing to your workplace. When that is an alignment, that really gets people much more engaged and much further away from burnout. When those are really in conflict with each other, people are much more vulnerable to being exhausted and cynical and discouraged.

Dan Korus: Yeah. And I wanna come back to these six in a bit, but I have one quick question

Dr. Michael Leiter: Mm-hmm.

Dan Korus: because we've talked about what burnout looks and feels like in ourselves as individuals. And I'm sure a lot of people listening to this are maybe, you know, I mean, I'm sure everyone probably goes through burnout at least one point in their life, right? Or do you think some people don't?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah. so there's something well that's it they certainly experience elements of it. Whether they do the whole shebang is is not sure about that. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. The whole sh. Okay. I'm I'm sure people probably resonate with at least one or two. And what I'm curious about is if you went into an organization and let's say it's soup everybody's burnt out. Just it everyone's burnt out, somehow the lights are still on. what does it look like? Like what do you see in the organization when everybody's when a majority let's just say a majority of people are burnt out.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yes, okay. Well, there's a lot of people burned out. Yeah, yeah, it's never really

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: everybody, not the place we've been to, it's always a range and and these and

Dan Korus: Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: these kinds of things and we're assessing them. But what does

Dan Korus: Sure.

Dr. Michael Leiter: it look like? Like essentially, and and it is interesting and that we we did one study earlier where we looked at the correspondence between patient satisfaction ratings of their nursing care and the scores on the burnout scale of the nurses.

[36:51] what a burned-out team looks like from the outside

Dan Korus: Okay. Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: And you know, they that it was like two different our group did the burnout scale and some other organization did the patient satisfaction. So they were independently run surveys.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: And we found that they aligned very clearly that where the school nurses were scoring more in the burnout direction, the patients were less satisfied with their nursing care. And when they were more on the engaged end, the patients were more satisfied. with their nursing care. So it's it comes across. I was sort of the a general lead. We have data that it does come across. And what is it what does it look like? I think for talking with the people working, watching them working, it's there's sort of a a a lack of enthusiasm. It's going through things in a more literally grim face kind of a fashion.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and it You can see yeah, just expressions of frustration. And because like what's going on is on the one hand, people are being overwhelmed by the demand. Secondly,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: people are being really frustrated in these core psychological motives of being of getting something that confirms their sense of of efficacy, that they their competence, getting confirmed that they're a competent person contributing. People really want to experience that at work. And when that's being frustrated, people are, you know, they they they are visibly, you know, frustrated with what's going on with their workplace. the secondly is this a sense of autonomy in terms of just a sense of agency, that there are some parts during your day where you feel like you're you're making things happen. You're not always on the receiving end of somebody else's agenda

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: all the time. you get out of that and you can like make things happen. And the third one is the qu belonging, being being part of a group. So that's where again you can watch the social encounters among people. And when people are really stressed out and really overwhelmed by the demands of the situation, it's really hard to be polite and considerate and to see things from another person's point of view. People tend to dig in, you'll see much more sort of act sometimes actively unpleasant c interactions among people, but certainly a lot fewer really pleasant, supportive social encounters among people. that that that tends tends to fade away over time. So yeah that that quality of relationships among people is is one of the real signs that way. Something that we've really focused on of late were is that with a lot of places, you know, it certain certainly happens in healthcare. there's just processes at work that get that are very bumpy. you find that you have to call upon favors among people in order to get things really done because the work processes as they are supposed to roll out. one of the you know key examples we use is the transfers out of emergency up into the hospital. That if you've watched episodes of the pit in the last season, you would see that's a real bump. And and and they convey that very well there. You don't just get that done by following, you know, the steps that are laid out in the procedural manual. You've got to, you've got to negotiate with people. You've got to call in favors. They can take a long, long time where you're being drawn away from your real work, which is to be a healthcare provider. And you're arguing with people for this administrative kind of issue. You can see that people are being really clearly strained during those kinds of interactions. And they're really frustrated that they're not, it's partly just the work and demand of doing this heavy kind of link that really should be run by an organizational process. And just the discouragement that comes that you're at a place that keeps dumping that kind of work on you. rather than being managed in a way that it just runs the way it's supposed to. Now that

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: kind of thing, you see those kinds of processes that got big gaps in them that way, that people are using a whole lot of extra energy to bridge those rather than just going through the process the way it would be smoothly engineered.

Dan Korus: So whenever you have a cross functional interaction in the workplace, or some sort of task that requires a high degree of relational currency, the more burnout is spread throughout the organization or perhaps precursors to burnout are present, the more those interactions are going to be strained. And particularly in hospitals, that's when patient care quality and patient satisfaction tends to plummet. Because they take the hit for it. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah. They they they take the hit for it. And it's like and and and in many ways the the problem's been sort of pushed down to the front line, even though, you

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: know, it's a major organizational problem. That like the the the the the the manual for the hospital doesn't want to say that, well, when things are overloaded and we can't tr you know they can't find room on the wards, well just park the patients in the hallway on a gurney and hope somebody gets to them at some time. But that's actually what ends up happening.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

Dr. Michael Leiter: But but nobody wants to own that.

Dan Korus: Yeah. And we don't want it we don't want it written down because then we admit that it's a real problem. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Right. So then a lot of people are just bridging things. And like I part it just the idea that that's a process link, that's like a fundamental beam of the hospital structure is getting that thing done. And when that's being carried by people and their relationships with each other, their capacity to ar argue with or make a case to somebody else, that's that's too heavy a load. more like a personal relationship to carry that serious a process within a organization.

Dan Korus: Yeah, that is too much to put on one person. And and what if you know, that person leaves and goes find a new job and there's someone new and they don't have the relationship built up and they don't have the they don't

Dr. Michael Leiter: They don't have relationships now.

Dan Korus: have the street cred, they don't have the currency, they don't have the trust.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Right. And they're yeah, so they're even in in worse shape than they're because there's still

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: the jobs needs to be done. So they're gonna have

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: to scramble that much harder. And it's I think those are you know, I'm I'm looking at stuff like that because I think those kinds of issues and there are parallel kinds of things, nothing maybe quite as with as much drama as that, but there

Dan Korus: Uh-huh.

Dr. Michael Leiter: are gaps like that in all kinds of organizations. And I think that's the kind of stuff that wears people down. particularly because it's both extra demanding in terms of your energy, but it also is challenging your sense of competence and your your sense of of of agency and and and maybe really disrupting some of your personal relationships with people as you try to call them these favors.

Dan Korus: For managers, you know, who are maybe saying, Okay, I understand that we are maybe have a a growing company and we're discovering these new processes and we wanna avoid this at all costs. Is there a solution to ensure that there's good organizational processes and systems so that way people don't have to depend on personal relationships to get jobs done? Is this is just a is this a process definement problem in some cases? It sounds like in the hospital example that's the case.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, that's that's that is the case there. What we and we were working with people on this now. The the idea is developing what can you do on the frontline level within your, you know, department, within you know, the organization, or working together and sort of as you know to establish a truce with the like if between like emergency and the labs, you know, where the

[44:13] fixing broken processes at the frontline instead of waiting for the top

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: p emergency is always calling up the labs and saying, you know, stat right, you know, it it

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: all these demands going that way. Okay, what if the the leaders of the two units got together and say, look, this is this is wearing both of our our all our people out. It's no it's

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: not really working well for either of us the way things

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: are going now. Let's see what can we develop here together in terms of a process that we can define that is something different from our people trying to, you know, ple lean on each other and make demands on each other in a personal way. So it's the idea that you're sort of building a structural link by laying out some very maybe even rigid kinds of processes at this point rather than as as a free-flowing negotiation. So you're you're building that link and you're doing it on your ground level rather than waiting for the powers on high to pay attention to your group and get around to saying this is a priority that we fix this problem. you can end up Sometimes with a better fix that way, because these are the people who actually know what is going on on this level

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: of the operation. But that's where, in terms of leadership, the the the heads of the managers for these two units that are having difficulties with each other, they've got to have the insight and the commitment to understand the problem as a relationship problem. And then they've got to Be able again, which I think is one of the more sophisticated things people do is to see a problem from the other person's point of view.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Is that that that's a very high level cognitive event to do that. like even if you're just driving down the street, what's the other person at the four-way stop? Well, how is how do they see this this situation? You know, but

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: to do that in this work situation, to be able to comprehend that and to then With those perspectives, the two leaders then can start hammering out a process that can work better for their people. And then they can monitor that and stand behind it and keep an eye on it very closely to see is this actually rolling out better. and and and and then, you know, that so that's what we're really build those kinds of links. There are sort of things that you can do, structural things like just making you know, very just Structured processes that we work people on how to do that. You sort of have to build it where you are. That's the kind of thing that can happen on a lower level of an organization that can make a big difference. Because so many of these stressors are sort of dumped down from on high, maybe from

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: even outside of the organization, coming in with some things in terms of funding or whatever. And then things happening on the executive level that trickle down. So how do units on the front line buffer themselves from that. And that's where, you know, I'm looking as more engineering kinds of solutions rather than making people feel better. No, the idea, how can you engineer a better process to deal with this crunch problem that keeps aggravating everybody all day?

Dan Korus: Yeah. So the best thing leaders could do in this situation is instead of elevating the problem upwards, asking for help, is try and find a solution at the lowest level possible, in particular with their peers. so what I'm hearing is that frontline management, managers who are closer to the boots on the ground level, perhaps team leads, you know, we would advocate here that and really suggest that they try and have have those problems solved at their level.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah. And come up with a solution, make it work, and then let the upper levels know that's what you're doing. And and

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and and and point out this is working better for us because there's probably parallel problems throughout the organization.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: And and you know, that that that can help move towards more broad solutions that way. I think yeah, that the idea of waiting for waiting for top leadership to get around to taking care of your unit is that you can

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: be you'd have to be very patient.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Well yeah. and and they're you know, I've seen it in surveys all the time that boots on the ground folks want leadership more In the halls every day.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Mm-hmm.

Dan Korus: You know, and they want they want top level leadership to have more listening with the bottom levels. And in in some ways I think that's a very valid ask because people are asking to be heard and they want their problems to be solved and they want to be seen and understood by their colleagues and and you know, their skip level managers on high to understand the problems. but that's also not their primary focus and the reason they're not there is because they have, you know, other jobs to go do and wouldn't it be great if our frontline management was empowered to be able to make these sorts of solutions so that they never even had to ask for senior leadership to be on the floor and if the listening was already built in at the lower levels. so what could a senior do to kinda empower this frontline management and say, hey, I I understand there are problems and I want to support you however I can in coming up with solutions at your level?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, I think well how what can they do? I think one is

Dan Korus: Besides saying that.

Dr. Michael Leiter: to is to start I don't well the kind of thing we were doing, I guess the

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: last couple of weeks here and in in Melbourne, we were working with some hospitals there and running workshops on how to do this kind of problem solution. So I think one

Dan Korus: cool.

Dr. Michael Leiter: thing is to develop some expertise on how do

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you actually develop these kind of structural links on on a bottom level. And yeah, how it just th a lot of first line managers, they don't know how to do this.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you know, they can they got promoted into that because they were a really good nurse or a really good programmer or whatever.

Dan Korus: Right.

Dr. Michael Leiter: They a lot of them end up in these positions without a whole lot of sophisticated management or engine process engineering as as their background. So I think that

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: One, it just by developing modules about how do you build links in this way, of thinking through

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that process, which again, we're just sort of looking at it on a fairly superficial level now has been thinking I've been thinking about over the past few months and looking

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: at how to put together these things. But developing that capacity in your first line managers is is is j by developing the capacity, you're giving some implicit kind of nod to and you should use that capacity now that you've developed it because

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: again they're gonna and and I think it's because senior leadership, the executive level, it's not only they've got other things to do, they've got a whole different perspective on what this job is all about. And it's a valuable perspective. It's one that's necessary and they should be paying attention to that. They should

[51:35] how to spot when a team is running on the favor economy

Dan Korus: Uh-huh.

Dr. Michael Leiter: be figuring out how does this work on a finance level, on a grant, how do you work

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: integrate your operation with the larger systems that you're part of. That's big stuff and it

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: takes attention and it takes a lot of time. So and they're just simply how to fix the nuts and bolts down here on the front line is really not what they should be doing with their time. And they're probably not going to do it all that well. So I'd say that understanding that there are these different levels of problem solving. And and and then You know, again, the frontline might that that's where we talk about you know, also how do you keep a record of of of the tensions that were there, the how you resolve them with the kinds of engineering that you did, and then to build a report that you send out the line and just let you know the senior levels know this is the kind of stuff that's going on so that there gets there is that translation communications that happen between You know, the different levels, the minor levels. So there's that kind of stuff.

Dan Korus: Do you have tips for how to do a report like that?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah. Yeah. it's hard. Yeah. Yeah you you'd have to come up with it's a different kinds of things that you measure with that. Like we start looking at you know what to what extent are you relying on more structural kinds of methods to solve problems and to what extent are you really relying on the favor economy among

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: among individuals? And are you looking for are are you really actually counting on people being heroes and coming through

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and by by working all those extra hours and doing that extra effort

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: all the time and you're gonna give them a an award for being the hero of of of the of the month or whatever. Is that really how you are running things? And if so, really Think about it. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, this is great. I love this. This is this is really great, Michael. I can tell you're passionate about all this.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah.

Dan Korus: and it it's awesome learning from you. It's not every day that you just get to sit down with the expert on something and ask him whatever comes to you know, whatever comes to mind. quick quick little fun question. What's your favorite road trip snack when you're traveling? What's your favorite go to snack?

Dr. Michael Leiter: the kind bars. That I like those. Yes. I like the chocolate ones. I like I like chocolate. The dark chocolate with all the dots and all that kind of stuff. I like that. That's that's

Dan Korus: Kind bars? Yeah. Okay, the ones with the nuts and the chocolate? Okay, chocolate. Dark chocolate. Dark chocolate with nuts.

Dr. Michael Leiter: yeah, that's that's that's what I'll yeah.

Dan Korus: If they don't have a kind bar, what are you going with?

Dr. Michael Leiter: What am going with? well depends on the sa how hot it is. I like Kit Kats, but it it it it does

Dan Korus: Kick hands, okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: d it only works in cool weather. It's it's too messy. I love chocolate, but it gets too messy.

Dan Korus: Yeah. that's true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kit Kat R and D really needs to come up with a more yeah, temperature agnostic snack there. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: yeah, yeah.

Dan Korus: so, you know, I I had a question that's been lingering in my head. Remember when we were defining what burnout looks like in organizations? Like if you were gonna go in and you see people and you were saying, Well, you know, they're gonna be a little bit more They're gonna have less enthusiasm, the interactions will be less kind, there'll be maybe a lack of like kind interactions, and there'll be higher disengagement. And that's the word you used and I wanna ask about that. Because if you look at the Gallup studies, and I've gotten pushback and also, you know, broad agreement on this podcast about those Gallup studies and how like the workforce is at all time low disengagement. So there's I think there's opinions on both sides. And some of the people say, Yep, disengagement's at an all time low. I'm seeing it in my fields right now, and other people are saying, Well, Gallup is also the people who are selling the solution, so you know, very convenient

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah.

Dan Korus: that they anyways, I do think that the world is a difficult place to work in right now and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lot of disengagement going on. And I'm what I'm wondering is do you think disengagement is different than burnout? Is is it the same thing and we're just using different words for it? What do you think the overlap there is?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Well, I think well disengagement and and and you know, the perspective of this, that's

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: really no, I think it's it's distinct from burnout. I think they are on opposite poles, but it is distinct

Dan Korus: Okay, good. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: in that disengagement is sort of the lack of the positive. Like the w when when when we're we're looking at like one of the things we did analytically w with larger number of Burnout survey, like of thousands of them, put together the results

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: of thousands of burnout surveys. And we found that you know, of the three elements of exhaustion, cynicism, and in efficacy, that and there were people who were you know had you know bad scores on all three, and they were the in the burnout cluster. They, you know, just all but they were also a bunch of people who had really positive scores on all three, and they were the engaged group. That were there. And then there were also people who were just exhausted. They weren't cynical and they weren't discouraged. They were just really tired. But they they really believed in what they were doing and they were loved what they were doing, but they were just tired. There were other people who were just cynical. They weren't tired. They couldn't be bothered to be tired. And they thought

Dan Korus: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: they they thought they were wonderful. They had great views, they had great attitudes of themselves. They thought

Dan Korus: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: You know, the management here was a bunch of idiots and they could run the place so much better than those people could. But

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: they scored very high on cynicism, but not on the other bit. Very different pattern, really different

Dan Korus: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: kinds of. But then the other, which is getting closer to what we were talking about, were the people who just scored low on efficacy, but they

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: weren't exhausted and they weren't cynical. It was just, okay, yeah, it's a job. I'm just coming here at the job. And when you looked at their relationships with other people. Which you

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: know, we were looking at with all this civility stuff we were working on. They didn't have very many negative encounters with other people, but they also didn't have very many really positive encounters with other people. It was just sort of blah. What they were missing was the positive. The people who were engaged, you know, with positive scores on all three, they were having very few negative encounters, but a whole lot of really positive ones. So that was the distinction.

Dan Korus: Nice. Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: So there's a world where You know, the stuff, the really positive stuff, the stuff that really gets your crank going is available to some people and it's not available to other people. And there's missing that.

Dan Korus: Got it.

[58:58] is disengagement the same thing as burnout?

Dr. Michael Leiter: and it's another step into negativity to get into that, you know, really overextended thing where you're just exhausted or the citicism or the whole burnout thing. There's there's gotta be active negativity happening, negative things happening, really serious mismatches. Where you're not just seeing, well, things could be more fairly run here. You're saying, I'm really being unfairly treated by this place, or my clientele

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: is really being unfair. That is actively bad. Things are happening. That's that so there is there is a world that goes into the negative that's different from the world that's just you know, lacking insipid on the positive.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay, I get it. So eng engagement is strictly lacking lacking the positive behaviors, but it's not necessarily you know, a disalignment in values or a strong disalignment in fair n perceived fairness. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: It doesn't have to, I mean, you're not going to be really engaged if you have those. But like with you, there's the ultra work engagement scale that people use a lot. And and the thing of if you look at the items, everything is worded in a really positive kind of way. So

Dan Korus: Got it.

Dr. Michael Leiter: if it you just have to not have positive to get a low score on it. You don't have to

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: have had some horrible crisis kind of situation.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Whereas on a burnout scale, if you're gonna be in the really negative end of that.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: You you you've got, you know, like bad things that are happening and happening frequently. You know,

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: like it's it's it's a different kind of thing that way, different cr creature that way. And in terms of how we're measuring and how people talk about it. yeah.

Dan Korus: Right. Okay. I've got maybe five more questions. We're at an hour. Could we keep going a little longer?

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay. A little longer.

Dan Korus: Okay, a little longer. I'll be fast. what do you think if you're a manager and you're not you're not a CEO or maybe you're a CEO of a small company, you're a leader What y what should you be doing about burnout if you suspect that your team is burnt out? I think we talked about a really great example about okay, try and build links and try and solve problems with you know, robust processes, to kind of take out the favor economy and take out You know, the the relational aspects of having to get work done, making it hard and and putting people friction in between processes. what else should managers be doing? I know that's a super broad question, but

Dr. Michael Leiter: Well, I think you know, the the metaphor we use in in our book and that I've used sort of use as my talks is that burnout is like the canary and the coal mine. The idea that that's the early warning indicator that you've got a problem. And I think that if you do know that, you know, it's coming to your attention that people are being burned out, whether you're doing measuring it in a sophisticated way or whether just what people are talking about, and you know it's happening,

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you really need to find out what's going on with those people? What is it? Just asking the question, like like a question that we were saying, you know, when people are doing return to work after they've been out for a stress leave or something like that,

Dan Korus: Uh-huh.

Dr. Michael Leiter: just asking questions like, what about your job makes it hard for you to work the way you want to work? What

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: what what about your job makes it hard for you to do what you want to do? What what

Dan Korus: Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you think is important? That kind of a What is it g so finding out what what is it about the job that's that way and and whatever process, whether you as the you know CEO of a small business can just go talk to your

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: people and find that out, or whether you need to go through an intermediary to be able to get that kind of you know, but figure out how the heck do you get that information? Get it. That's

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: vital, and that you're the experts on what is burning people out are the people who are experiencing.

Dan Korus: Are burnt out.

Dr. Michael Leiter: burnout at your workplace. They

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: they have the expertise, they have the information,

Dan Korus: Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: whether it's anonymous surveys or comp you know they find out.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Got it. Loud and clear. Okay, and if you're if you're if you're a leader and your team's burnt out, say a majority of your team's burnt out, how do you fix it aside from talking to people? You know, what are some of the biggest things? Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: In fact, you change you change how the work is. You find out again, they use that conversation to you, but you actually then change things. And and I think that that's you know, so many people do again, they do surveys about burnout or other kinds of things at work and then they don't do anything. And pe and they go, gosh,

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. So you gotta go yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: so for now people are just getting more and more cynical over time. yeah, because you're d you're asking them the question

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: about the most important thing in their job and then you're doing nothing. Well,

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you know, really it y They should be cynical about what you're doing because you're not doing

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: it. You've got to actually change things, even

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: though it's expensive and inconvenient.

Dan Korus: I like this. And I think there's a you could find a you could find you know, a couple dozen guides very quickly on how to address burnout in the workplace. And I love the simple advice of just nope, ask ask the people, figure out what they need, and then go do something about it. that works for everybody. and there's nothing you know, there's nothing complex about that aside from just being able to establish the rapport that you could get a straight answer. Okay, this is great. Thank you so much. All right, I got a couple more. You're doing great, Michael. Hang

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah. okay. Okay.

Dan Korus: on with me. All right. there's four generations in the workplace right now. There's four generations. one is quickly leaving as they go into retirement. and the the Gen Z faction is quickly quickly raising. not quite with the millennial, I think. Do you think are there differences in in burnout awareness and in susceptibility to burnout across generate generationally? Have you seen that?

Dr. Michael Leiter: yeah, I think well, I mean, younger people have, you know, heard the conversation for much more of their lives. I think it it it's a very active kind of issue right now. So I think that

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: when people are talking about it, it's there. And and and I think that with each, you know, decade or whatever goes by, people have a more you know, a stronger sense of that they are of of of of expectations of what they they should be getting from work. The idea that it should

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: be a place where you you know can do meaningful activities, you can do things that are rewarding to you, that people should be treating you well, you should, you know, so I I I think that's that's been a steady, you know not a steady, but anyway, a general progression. in that way. So I think that the expectations that younger people are bringing to the workplace are demanding more of the workplace. And I think that if it's going to be a good relationship, that doesn't lead to burnout, that those kinds of expectations are have have to be balanced and yeah.

[66:20] workplace literacy and advice for every career stage

Dan Korus: Good. Is that a good thing? So it's a good thing that the younger generations Okay, cool. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: I think it's a good thing. I think it's overall good thing though. I think but on the going along with that is that again, people going into the workplace need a fairly they need a more and more sophisticated knowledge about how this is place how these places work and what is what is a reasonable, fair process that's going on between you and your workplace. I think there's there's a bit on sort of workplace literacy that needs to be, you know. continually brought up to date and and that people need people need to look after themselves. It isn't you can't just go in and think everything's gonna work out well. I just show up and do my job and it's gonna work out fine. No, it's more complicated than that. It's what

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: you need and and you need to understand how it operates if you're going to thrive.

Dan Korus: How do people give themselves that workplace literacy?

Dr. Michael Leiter: I think re reading books like the the Burnout Challenge. So that they good management. I think readings and good management books, good workplace kinds of books. I think it's a and listening to podcasts like yours, I think it it's that knowledge is out there

Dan Korus: Cool. Thank you, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: and and it's gotta be part of a conversation and and it it it doesn't take care of itself. It's you've gotta actually

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: know it.

Dan Korus: Yeah. well well put. And of the books of yours that I've read, I've loved every single one. and so I will be linking into

Dr. Michael Leiter: I guess.

Dan Korus: the comments just so people know that they can always get a little bit more Michael if they want to, through his literature and through his scientific articles

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay. huh.

Dan Korus: are very well written and I like them all too. so I have I have four more questions, they don't have to be long, I promise.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay.

Dan Korus: If you were gonna teach someone emotional intelligence, how would you do it?

Dr. Michael Leiter: my. Wow. I guess the one thing we've done in emotional intelligence is is is is our sort of our work work group civility things. And so that's like doing family therapy with work groups. That's what we do. I would work

Dan Korus: Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: on it in in a relationship kind of model that way, where you've got people together and they're reflecting on their actual relationships with people that they work with every day and with with a facilitator to help them deepen their understanding.

Dan Korus: Alright. Work group civility. have you ever seen a company do this of their own volition?

Dr. Michael Leiter: yeah, yeah, we've worked out yeah, we did we did these civility

Dan Korus: Awesome.

Dr. Michael Leiter: projects. We've done it with lots of and and a lot a variety

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Dr. Michael Leiter: of different fields, not just the healthcare world, but all kinds of different organizations.

Dan Korus: That's awesome. And you think it has a big impact on people's, you know, relative relationships and emotional intelligence building? That's great.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, we've got data on that. And and it and it it it reduces their propriety towards burnout. Yeah.

Dan Korus: That's great. Cool. That's awesome. okay, well that's really interesting. So, imagine someone who's starting their first day of work tomorrow. they've never been in the workforce before. What advice do you have for them, Michael?

Dr. Michael Leiter: to k to well well again, you've got to get on top of what's going on here. So one listen listen to your podcast or what get get some knowledge, but also

Dan Korus: Ha ha.

Dr. Michael Leiter: keep for the first few weeks here, keep a diary on your phone at the end of the day, however you note make notes of things, but sort of a day-by-day kind of way. what were the best thing that happened at work today and what was my worst moment at work today?

Dan Korus: Nice.

Dr. Michael Leiter: keep track of that for for you know for the perceived you know just for a while for you figure out what the pattern to until it's really starts getting very repetitive and you go, I know it is and because then that the that then you could start making some goals. How do I get more of the good stuff and how do I get less of the bad stuff?

Dan Korus: That is a very analytical clinical psychologist answer. And I and I also think that it's not something that many people would ever think to do. And if they were gonna journal, you know, not having those personal introspective prompts, what a what a useful thing. that's awesome. Okay, that that's good. I I met a manager once who had people she forbade them from doing any work for the first like two to three weeks. And she just said, Here's a notebook, I just want you to take notes. You're just gonna go to meetings

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay.

Dan Korus: and take notes, you're not gonna make any decisions, do anything, you're just gonna write things down and observe.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Well that's the again, that's organizational psychology. I said it's all right there. You just need to open your eyes and good to make some notes so you remember. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. That's great. For someone who's maybe in the middle of their career, they're a middle manager, they're a a senior contributor, what advice do you have for them?

Dr. Michael Leiter: I I think start looking around with your workplace. I I that what we were talking about before about having processes

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: that like had gaps in them, like w and were

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Leiter: really straining people in order to cover those gaps. it's a try I I I look at yeah, look around yourself at the organization that you're in and are there gaps like that and what are the nature of them and start getting your your mind around how would you build stronger links such that that are putting a lot less strain on people in their work days.

Dan Korus: Wonderful. Last question. for CEOs, people at the top, VPs, our executive team, our senior leadership, what advice do you have for them, Michael?

Dr. Michael Leiter: again to to really think about again, burnout, when people are experiencing burnout, you know, it doesn't have to be everybody, just if if if a number of people are, that's a signal that you've got some parts of the process that are putting just too much on people with more than people really can bear in a sustained kind of way. And if some people are getting to the point of really experiencing elements of burnout. It's going to be taking the edge off of some of your other people who are able to sustain a bit better. So it it it is giving you a signal of a cost that is wearing away of that premier edge that you're gonna get out of the best people. It's going to lose part of that. And you really need that premier edge from your people if you're gonna succeed in this workday, work world that we have.

Dan Korus: Awesome. And if people want to continue the conversation and they want to learn from you, where can they get in touch with you? where can they find your books?

Dr. Michael Leiter: okay. Wow. well I have a website called mplider dot com. And

Dan Korus: Okay.

Dr. Michael Leiter: so yeah, that's that's one location. the books are, you know, through Amazon or local bookstores or wherever. that kind of thing. So LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn. I put post things on LinkedIn occasion.

Dan Korus: Perfect. Okay, great. Yeah. Michael, we did it. Great job. That was wonderful.

Dr. Michael Leiter: We did it. I really enjoyed the conversation. This is a great one. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much, Michael. Do you have any tips for me on what I can do

Dr. Michael Leiter: What the afternoon. Okay.

Dan Korus: better next time or

Dr. Michael Leiter: Well no, that's the

Dan Korus: All right.

Dr. Michael Leiter: nice flow of this conversation. You got it down. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Dan Korus: Thanks. I appreciate that. I love interviewing. You've been an absolute pleasure. you're a hero of mine. I think n not many people a lot more people should be investing in the burnout dialogue and learning from you. So I really appreciate all your work and I I just want to say thank

Dr. Michael Leiter: Yeah, okay.

Dan Korus: you for all your writing and all your books and all the things you do. And it

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay.

Dan Korus: was a big pleasure to get to interview today. I'm I'm so very grateful for your time just honored that you did this with me. So thank you.

Dr. Michael Leiter: Okay, well thank you, Dad. I really enjoyed the opportunity and to really explore these things with you. It was a great day. Okay.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Awesome.