Leadership In College Admissions: The Cost-Benefit From Behind The Decision Desk with Brent Bode

[0:00] what does an admissions leader actually do?

Brent Bode: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I'm a Senior Assistant Director of Admissions at a mid-sized public university in the Pacific Northwest, as you're at least very well aware of. And I've been in the admissions office for just past my thirteenth year. process, student recruitment, application review, things along those lines. And it's fun. It's been a really fun ride. I got into that because I was a campus tour guide as a student and had a bunch of different student services type roles throughout my time as an undergrad and just really loved the experience of working on a college campus and working with students. And so it really led me kind of into that role and it's just expanded over time.

Dan Korus: Yeah. What did you what did you go to college for? Do have you ever told me that?

Brent Bode: Like what my actual degree is in or what I came to college for.

Dan Korus: Okay. Well tell us tell us both. Tell us both. For those who don't know, Brent actually used to be my boss. Like five or six years ago. Brent was my boss. when I and I also worked in admission. So it's actually really fun to get to interview interview someone. but now I'm embarrassed because like there's like I feel like there's like key information I don't know about you. And I'm like, I know you, but like I don't know you, you know? So this is actually really fun for me. Yeah. So tell us so what you what's you study for school and

Brent Bode: Yeah, that's great.

Dan Korus: What do you guys perform?

Brent Bode: The distinction of what supervising students is like where you kinda have to keep that line. We can get into that. Yeah.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Brent Bode: But I as a high schooler and even before that, always loved marine biology. I loved the sciences. Being a California boy, it makes it pretty easy to love the ocean when you're just that close to it all the time. And so that that was really what my primary goal in looking at universities was as a high school student. So pretty much all the schools I applied to were on the West Coast. And that's what made me look up the coast towards Washington. and at the end of the day, the school was the one that was also one of the most affordable schools for me to attend. And had a really stellar marine biology program. that's what led me to the Pacific Northwest outside of also the weather. I liked that cooler, rainier weather. So that was a draw for me rather than a a setback for I know as it can be for some students. But then once I got to campus and I started my first couple quarters, I took a biology class and was like, Well, this is not what biology was like in high school at

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: all. And realized that it really was not the direction of what I wanted my career to look like. And then through that, I also had to take a geology course as part of the marine biology program at the time and absolutely loved that and ended up switching majors into geology for about a year, which I ended up having enough credits to minor in. But again, had that realization of I don't actually want to be in the natural sciences. I don't want to just be in a lab crunching numbers all the time, not necessarily having interaction with other people. And I took the time to talk to an advisor about what my options were and what other programs might be a good fit. And that was how I found our urban planning program on campus. And so I ended up completing environmental studies and policy degree with an emphasis in urban and city planning. And then had that minor in geology. Completed well before it

Dan Korus: That's so cool. that's so cool. Wait, that's great. Who who was do you remember that advisor? They're just not still around, right? yeah, Curry Patrick.

Brent Bode: Drive. Absolutely.

Dan Korus: Wow. That's cool. So she kinda had a a pretty big impact on your on your direction. yeah.

Brent Bode: Absolutely. That type of advising was one of those things you don't know you need until you're sitting there talking to someone and they can just like hand you a piece of paper and go, Well, you just described this personality. Look at this job description. How does this feel? And it was like, Well, yeah, this it marries working within like the public sector, it works with people, you still have to have the natural sciences side of things. You know, as she started to explain the types of classes you take, I'm like, Wow, this really does fit it fits my personality, it fits the type of environment I want to be in and all those things really clicked. And even though I didn't immediately jump into city planning as a career, I was on that pathway. I had applications out as a graduating senior, but I had that kind of pull towards do I want to stay working in higher ed 'cause I've enjoyed my student roles so much, or do I want to go into this career that I've been essentially training for and I got the admissions counselor job and it's kind of been there ever since. But been a real benefit because I serve on our city planning, the planning commission for the city of Ferndale. So still get to flex that musc muscle even fifteen years later. All

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: that I've learned still really is important and useful and I'm able to also give back to our community by serving on this kind of publicly appointed type of commission.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay, but the but the passion to work in admissions and work with students won out. And that was the that was the student job and then here you are and you still haven't left. and so this is something that like you care about, like this is this is the passion. Yeah. Why do you love it so much? What keeps you there?

Brent Bode: I think the especially the admissions part of things, the college search process, you know, nationally, I think if you ask, if you look at the statistics of attitudes, it's considered a really high stress time for both families and for students because we've built up what that process is like and the competitiveness of what it's like to get into college. And that's just not what reality actually is. Over seventy, seventy-five percent of universities admit a vast majority of their student applicants and college access is there. There are great institutions that students can go to that don't require being the top five percent of your graduating class. it can be a school that even if you are in that top five percent, maybe they have a more accessible admissions policy, but you're gonna have more success attending that school. You're gonna find people that you connect with and can learn from. And it can ultimately be a really positive experience for you. And that search process for students who take that seriously in high school really come into college having an incredible time right from the get go. And that was something I took really seriously as a high school student. I saw the success that came from that. And I think that's where my passion lies is just having students find that for themselves. I obviously represent one institution, but it doesn't mean I'm not able to have those conversations with students as they navigate all of that. and that part's really fun. it's really fun to see students light up when you start talking about a program or a club that you have or something that they didn't even know existed. That all of a sudden it's like, well, wait a minute. I didn't know about this. It's like, okay, well let's talk some more about it. What is it you want to do? How do you want to be involved? And getting to be part of that process is just rewarding in and of itself. Especially 'cause it's a place where you then see them on campus. and you walk through and they're like, my god, hi. And I don't always remember everybody, but for the most part, I can at least recognize a face and go, I'm so glad you're still here. I'm glad what have you been up to? are you in that club? did you join that major? And so it it's just a really rewarding place to be.

[7:25] what do students actually need to pick a college?

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay, so if I'm getting it right, the transition from high school to college is stressful. And it's hard on families and the students. Sometimes could be. Yeah. Could be could be really stressful. I mean, I really loved the university and I remember it being stressful. I think it's like a big decision, you know? Yeah. It's like one your first sometimes could be could be a first big like adult decision. You know, and you're like you're facing unknown consequences and you don't really know what's on the other side. So you're just trying to Anyways, what do you think like the bare minimum kids in that situation need? I say kids, young adults in that situation need I felt like a kid in order to be successful at that time, you know, and like make make a good decision to where they can flourish better. Yeah. You know, once once they find the right spot.

Brent Bode: Well, we talk and like I just grandstanded about, you know, like finding the right place and finding somewhere you're gonna be successful. Yeah. That that's also where a lot of that stress stems from is that pressure to make the right choice. And the other side of that same coin is that there isn't just one choice. There's not just one place that you're gonna be successful and being open to the possibilities that other places can have that same effect for you. I think can really do wonders. The students who come in really resistant or maybe we weren't their first choice or the school they go to wasn't their first choice. You know, you're coming in with maybe more of a bad attitude or more of a sour taste. a bit of sour grapes there. But mm

Dan Korus: Uh-huh.

Brent Bode: those students who are willing to go, Well, I'm gonna make the best of this situation. I'm still gonna go find those clubs. I'm still gonna go try out for some major or some play or whatever the thing might be, that's That's where you end up finding that success. And so also being open enough to trying something new or being surprised by the place that you end up picking can be ultimately a really positive experience, also. And so it's hard to say you need to find the right place, you want to go to the right spot, don't make the wrong choice. Right. The same answer is also, but there is no wrong choice. Your attitude is what's going to really affect how you go about making friends, how you go about presenting yourself. And and being open that way is a really important piece of all of that. And I

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: were laughing because you know, we spent fifteen days in Germany and right. Germans are known for having a very kind of stern face on the day to day, which even we

Dan Korus: Happy.

Brent Bode: both also have, so we blended in really well. but that that type of attitude, especially at American colleges, like if someone's got the like, you know, RBF and That's not gonna make someone else be like, Hey, how's your day going? Like I I feel like I can already tell what that is. But that college experience of like, who are you? Come sit with me at that table. my God, how's it going? I want to get to know you more is how you build those connections and those kind of circles of friends. My experience in undergrad, I realized my first year was like creating all these little circles of people that I knew from a class, from a club, from a event. And then by my sophomore junior year. All of those circles started connecting. you know this person and you know that person. Well, wait a minute. Now we all know the same larger group. well, let's all go do this thing together. And those groups of three or four friends suddenly balloon into something a lot larger. But you have to be open to that. You have to be ready to say yes. Definitely an improv moment of say yes and and just go along with it 'cause you don't know who else you're gonna meet.

Dan Korus: Okay, so pretend we're making the decision process and you can envision yourself as like an advisor to me or as as a parental figure if you so choose it.

Brent Bode: that old, but okay.

Dan Korus: So I mean, you know, you you said that you picked the university because good marine biology program, like the weather, you know, it fit it fit the bill. You know, the bill was right, the price was right. And then the rest of that is just kind of like this process of surrender and like being open to the experience and like just being your best self in the moment. Is is there anything else like, you know, I'm thinking about like culture or like surrounding industry or you know, different impacts. You you would know best. What else should if someone wanted to just like think about the decision and make something educated and make like a best a best guess, you know, between two options, what are some of the other factors that that are there that they should be considering that that you think are important?

Brent Bode: I think you nailed it. and I think what what is so important is understanding what are your priorities. Some students don't care about geographic location. I knew I wanted to stay on the West Coast. I knew that I wanted to be somewhat close to home, but not so far away that it was going to be double digit hours of transit trying to get back should something happen.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: For some folks it is based on that major. They know. I have a niece who just started university this year. She has wanted to be a dentist her entire life. She wears a gold tooth on the necklace, like the whole thing. we believe that she will persevere through that. Absolutely. Like, you know, she's she's a very driven individual.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: and it's very fun to watch her be successful through high school, navigate that college search process. and even she didn't end up I think exactly where she thought she was going to end up, if you'd asked her at the start of her senior year when she was applying. But sometimes picking that based on a major is really important. And for her, having a prep program that was gonna assist her in those goals was more important too. and that can be what it is. Some students, you know, you're looking for an engineering program. Going to a specific type of program might be the best option for you. And maybe that's not the school necessarily you want to go to, but that's for you to weigh. You have those big buckets, location, cost, major, business access, internship access. What connections do the does the university have to businesses also is a really important factor. Knowing that graduates are able to be employed, start in their career, or at least start on a trajectory that will get them to that place is really important. But that's different. your and my experience in making that selection is also was different. And we went to the same school. And, you know, we recruit in upwards of four thousand students every year to the university. And very few of them are going to have the same exact reasons as to why they chose to come to the university versus choosing to go to another regional institution or a large R one Division I type of school or a small private school. They're all going to be different decisions, but that's where we see the families come into play and that parents and siblings will have a a stronger say in that decision, especially as students get down to a couple of schools they're choosing between who's who's the next person in their ear. Is it mom? Is it dad? Is it grandpa? Where did they go to school? Is the the tradition of going to the same school there? Yeah. I had friends who broke that tradition. They were Washington State families, their parents and their parents' parents were cougars. And then they had to they broke free and they came to the university and it was a whole family to do and they were still supported by their family, but it was still that like constant razzing of like, Well, but you did pick wrong, you know, and and they have to live with that forever, even though they loved their college experience and wouldn't change it for the world. That's not an unusual thing to hear too.

[14:51] admissions as a decision-making coach, not a salesperson

Dan Korus: I feel like we're also I totally did. I feel like we're also just like teaching kids how to like make decisions, like a good decision making process. Like you're asking, okay, what do you care about? And then let's prioritize that. And then and then there's the key stakeholders, like the parents and the grandparents, and we're saying, Okay, well what are their values? And maybe their values aren't gonna be your values. Like maybe that's not aligned. Maybe you do care about going to the the same place where everybody else went 'cause that's important to you. Maybe not. So that that yeah, that's like a that's a pretty sound decision making process of identifying your values and what's important to you and then being able to to walk through that.

Brent Bode: And there's a big maturity piece too that comes with it. I mean you even said before calling them kids and we generally try to not call the teenagers kids. Yeah. And call the It

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: is hard because it does feel like they are kids.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: But you know, that's also the part of having trusted adults in their lives. to have someone that they can go to and ask those questions and for some students they don't have parents who've been through the process. They might be first generation college going students and it might just be a a family where they don't want to listen to what the parents have to say, whether it's good or bad. But our high school partners, the college counselors, the advisors at the high school teachers are also those type of trusted adults that those students will look to for that type of advice. And so it is, it's they're making a decision for themselves, but they whether they do or don't realize, you know, there's always going to be someone else with a little bit more experience trying to share that. And sometimes it comes off maybe a little too direct, which can have the opposite effect of getting the student to do what we want them to do. but also sometimes that's what they're looking for is someone who has more knowledge, more information to say, No, this is a good choice, or or have you thought about this before you make this big decision?

Dan Korus: Yeah. I've always okay, I think like two neurons just clicked in my head 'cause I always thought like it always and sometimes it felt in admissions, you know, that we're advocating for the school. You know, we have all the benefits and we're there to advocate and share the benefits. And certainly at the student level, right? Because we're not we're not paid advisors or anything. That's your job. And I think I it just clicked for me that really you're teaching, you know, you're helping guide young adults through a decision making process framework and helping them actually make a decision. That's so cool. Is that hard? Or are you ever in a room with like other adults and a kid and they have different ideas about the decision and you're trying to be like neutral and you leave the room being like

Brent Bode: I say that the what feels like happens the most is you might be in a room, especially if it's a parent and a student, and they're looking to you to to convince them to come to the institution. And like you said, that is generally what our job is, is to convince them to come here. Yeah. But I have a hard time convincing you of something when I don't know what you want, also. So I can't just walk up to someone and start Saying, hey, you should come walk down the road with me. Like that's not well, you need a reason for to want to walk down the road with me.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And so oftentimes for me, and again, I'm more of a blunt, no nonsense person when I'm in those type of situations,

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: is I'll say, Well, what do you want? and I will pin it back on them to say, like, I need to know more about what your your goals are. And I can help you find what those are here. And then when that sounds good to you. I know that I've got a place to to launch from and say, okay, well, let's talk more about this. Let me get you connected with so and so. But when they just sit there and go, sell me on your school, like, well, I don't know what to sell you. There's literally a million things that make up our institution. You're not gonna interact with probably even ten percent of it by the time you graduate. So help me help you understand what it is that you're actually looking for. And then when if it's if it's not there, I have no issue saying, Well, we don't have that and it's not gonna happen by the time you're here. But maybe there's other pieces to it that can help fit that bill. And it might not be that highest priority item that the student's looking for. And then that can be okay, that it's not a perfect match. That doesn't ruin our ability to continue having that conversation for me to continue recruiting you to the university. But it often comes back to me putting it back on them. It's It's a a kind of funky game to play where they're expecting a lot more from us, but the reality is we're there to guide them so they just have the information to make the best decision for themselves.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And we have to hope that we're have financially set them up to make a good choice, that we have the programs or the clubs and the resources that they want to have during their college experience. I'd also say there's I think for some families, they expect that every college has the same things. Especially as you get to larger institutions, you would assume just because it's bigger means it should have more of everything. And that's not the case. Every school really does have different resources, different programs. The culture of the institution, you talked about culture a little bit earlier, is a really important piece, which is why we always suggest going and visiting a college campus. That

Dan Korus: Absolutely.

Brent Bode: is the best way to know you are gonna feel like it's a home for yourself. If the first thing we tell people who haven't been is like, well then come see us. If you come to campus and go, my god, this feels like home, you're set. What else do you need to look at?

Dan Korus: Yeah. Absolutely. That's such good advice. And so I was in Atlanta, Georgia last weekend. so also hot and humid. Not for me. Bless everyone who loves that. cannot and enjoys it. I don't think yeah, it doesn't no thanks. So I was walking around Georgia Tech and one of my friends is a a PhD student there. And Georgia Tech is primarily a graduate university. Weighted heavily towards being a graduate student. That's how they make most of their money. Undergrads don't necessarily feel like an afterthought, but it's definitely like hard to to be an undergrad there. Yeah. And yeah, not not not their first priority for sure. And you could feel it. It was you could feel the energy walking around the campus. Everybody felt like like they were on a mission, you know, like they were headed to a meeting. You know, and like the like the kids had a lot of bags under their eyes, like. People felt like kind of stressed out and like on edge. You could feel the vibe. I'd never seen this. There were a bunch of students in tuxedos just to go to regular class. There's a bunch of kids like fully, like fully dressed up. And it's like it's like 92 and like 80%, like 60 to 80% humidity. And like I'm I'm in like a baggy t shirt and Crocs and like I'm I'm I'm swimming. You know, I'm already swimming. I'm

[22:16] why the campus visit tells you more than the brochure

Brent Bode: Casual.

Dan Korus: in Northwest Northwest Business Cash Hole. And like I don't Yeah, I don't so I student you should like it shouldn't just be a a tour. Like you should walk around and you should go like try and role play as a student and like feel what everybody else is feeling and like what do the students look like? Do they look like do they look like you? Yeah. You know, do they d do you see people that look like you? Do you feel does Is there like a sense of underlying anxiety? Like I was like, I'm underdressed to walk around campus. You know, like that was I don't know.

Brent Bode: Interact with you too is such an important piece of that too. Like that that speaks to the culture is what do the strangers who are walking around you act like? 'Cause as soon as you get anything over a school of a couple thousand people, you are always gonna have strangers around you every single day. So how do those people act? They don't know whether you're a student or not. So do you feel like you're getting a good vibe from the way that people are interacting with you on the day to day? Yeah, that says that says a lot about what What a campus is like and what it would be like if you were there.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: No suits and ninety degree humidity.

Dan Korus: I mean, I I love that they're taking it seriously. Yeah. You know, but I also think that I think there's plenty of life left to wear suits. I think have fun. You know, I learned I learned a lot just by having fun and enjoying life, you know? and most do. That's that's the college exp what do you th how much how much of college do you think is just like the ex like all the things that aren't class, you know, that teach you about life? Like having to be on your own, like having to manage yourself, like meeting getting into trouble, like learning how to ba how do I balance having fun with a bunch of people who are my age and cute versus like doing something real like how you know?

Brent Bode: I'd say the majority. Okay. I think it's one of those things that flies under the radar for a lot of students they don't realize because it's so incremental during your time. Just like as you learn anything, you you don't notice the small gains. It's only when you look back long range and realize, wow, those are some really large gains I made in a short period of time.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: The experience of those eighteen year olds freshman year for that traditional age student. Those are some big jumps they make from freshman to sophomore to junior year. And then as students graduate, they look back and go, Wow, I really was a baby back then. You know, I really had no idea what I was doing. Yeah. Well, I when I rented my first apartment, wow, I wish I had read the lease before I signed all of that. You know, those types of moments happen that are easier to have those mistakes. there's more flexibility. College and university just allows for more of that learning opportunity to happen. and I saw that supervising students where it was the like, you know, you want to be upset with someone when they do something stupid. But the reality is it's like it's probably the first real stupid mistake they've made. So how do you take that and still have consequences for actions while also giving them the opportunity to grow from it, to try again and to persevere through it instead of having just a one strike, you're out type of situation. That's one of the harder balances, I'd say, for staff and faculty at university is just weighing that constant balance of like being at an institution that's whose mission and vision is always about educating and learning while also still holding people accountable to the things they do because you are eighteen. You are an adult in the eyes of the law. And so it's a very unique gray area, I think we have in our country in terms of what education does for students in that age range.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. So, you know, there's I d I don't know if this is like in the zeitgeist where y'all are, but there's all this talk of you don't need a college degree. You know, like you can just go start flipping homes or you know, owning a business or doing something or, you know, do this other stuff and you make all this money. And so like I'm wondering, like from your perspective, Yeah. We just talked about all the intangible benefits aside from just having a degree. And as two degreed individuals, obviously like I'm a proponent for it. I wouldn't be where I am without it. You know, aside from like the paper, what's you know, what are some of the benefits that those people might be missing out on? Yeah. Aside from just like having like a a lower consequence environment to just be able to learn more quickly.

Brent Bode: Yeah. I think that's the first real big one is that your flexibility of life is a lot different in college. It is honestly kind of what you're paying for. You know, the cost of college is at an all time high. It is astronomical in comparison to what it was twenty, thirty, fifty years ago. But the benefits and the experiences that students have has stayed relatively consistent through time. I was just sitting through a professional development this past week actually with our National Association for College Admissions Counseling. cool. And they so they're the national organization that oversees kind of what all universities and colleges do in terms of the college admissions process. And they shared a stat that was seventy-one percent among all of the rhetoric that you hear on the news and everywhere else, seventy-one percent of students who complete an undergraduate degree. do not regret their college experience, where they went, or the cost that it took to get them through their degree.

Dan Korus: Wow.

Brent Bode: So it's almost three quarters of students just shy of that, that still look back no matter what the cost was and say, that was worth it.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: It doesn't point exactly they didn't share what whether that was because of their career, because of their income level or socioeconomic status. Whether it was the social environment that made it worth it, but there is something to it across all colleges, not just the one I represent, not just a specific type of university, but all colleges. Three quarters of students do still look back and go, No, that was worth every penny I spent to get that. So I think that points pretty prevalently to why it does work and what is working. There's always room for improvement. There's always issues and problems. Every school is going to have them. It students do tend to make the best of the situation that they're in. I see that with students on the day to day. Even when something's not going well, there's usually other things that they they can look to and say, well, this is at least working for me. I'm to keep focusing on on that. So I would say that the social experience is that counterpiece to ensuring that they have a degree, looking to degrees that will get them employed afterwards. But

[29:41] what's actually worth paying for in college

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: the the flexibility, I think of it as like the bounciness. You can bounce off the walls while you're in college and try all kinds of different things and not also feel like you're wasting time. I say as an adult who has probably taken on fifteen different new hobbies and things, like that part of your life doesn't ever have to end. But you have more free access to it in college because you're paying for it through your fees and activities and stuff.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to think about it. Also, we do a lot of yeah, at my job we do a lot of continuing education. and and helping and and you know, our our our chain is is really big big on that and helping adults get back into classes. It's so much harder as an adult. You know, like when you're not paying to go do it full time and just focus on it, it it's a it's a lot harder. You know, and my wife is also in full time school right now. She wants to be a teacher, so I'm really proud of her. And it's tough. You know, it's taxing. It takes a lot more energy. There's more logistics, you have overhead, you know. And when you don't when your responsibilities are minimal, it is way easier to experiment. Right. so yeah, that that makes complete sense. So being a Yeah.

Brent Bode: Because as employees at the institution, there's never really money set aside for faculty and staff to have that type of continued development because the focus is on students, right? Like we are there to serve the students who are there to learn and grow. and then we get put in this twofold of, well, there needs to be money for what the students are doing. but also how can we continue to support them if we don't know necessarily what the recent trends are, what are other institutions doing? We want to be in a competitive market for recruitment. If we're not there being involved with the professional development of all the other institutions and how they're learning from one another, then those schools start to miss out on those things. And that's really challenging to to balance that. Because how do you argue with, well, should the money go to the students or do you as a a faculty or as a staff member? Makes for a a double edged sword for sure.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause if you only invest in the students and not in the faculty, then you will eventu you will not have students Exactly. You know, at some point.

Brent Bode: Exactly. Students who have old information.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. It'll become pretty one dimensional and and the school will be kind of set in its ways for for a while. It'll be slower to adapt. It won't be on the cutting edge. So thirteen years in admissions. Fifteen? Thirteen? Thirteen.

Brent Bode: Thirteen.

Dan Korus: Thirteen. Cool. and that's a good stretch. That's like a pretty good stretch. Like I th I look at a resume and I see like more than three years in a job and I'm like, dedication. But that's unique because now you've gotten to see changes and trends over the greater part of a decade. What what's changed and what's stayed the same that maybe you didn't think would?

Brent Bode: The way that students go about the college search process

Dan Korus: Okay.

Brent Bode: is really different. it's entirely different now. College access, information excuse me, information access for students is so much more readily available and more quickly updated that compared to even when you and I were looking at colleges, they just have more options at their fingertips. There are more schools. utilizing things like the common application so they can apply to more schools. And so we are seeing the number of applications that students are submitting is a lot higher. we've seen students depositing at multiple schools. So the thing that was meant to lock a student into what college they're saying yes to, they're now doing that to multiple to delay their decision for where they actually want to attend and just eating that to buy time and to eat they'll just eat that money.

Dan Korus: How much how much? How much is a deposit? Just so we know.

Brent Bode: Anywhere from three hundred to five hundred dollars for the most part. I'd say

Dan Korus: Not not free. Not free. But if you're doing multiple, like that could be so Okay. Wow. Okay. Keep going. Sorry.

Brent Bode: The institution I work at has moved to a model where there's a confirmation fee that students pay with their first quarter tuition. So now they are they are able to also cancel their enrollment and not have that finance piece still come back to bite them later on.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: But that's one way that they are essentially gaming the system, although it's not it doesn't feel nefarious. I guess you could probably talk to some enrollment managers who would say that's nefarious. But I look at that and go, They're operating within the rules we've set. I it's hard to argue with that.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: We have broad rules. They get to have broad usage of those rules.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And then other changes. It's hard when I have that I have that incremental mindset where I'm like, it's like exactly the same. And it

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: it's not at all. I think every process I'm part of in our office is different than the when I started in twenty thirteen.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But things just being digital is a lot. Makes everything easier. communication with the students is easier. But the the flip side to that is They're also getting that amount of communication from every school they're interested in. I was

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: at a conference this year and a colleague had a senior in high school. She's also a university communications, she's an admissions communications director. And so her daughter applied to ten schools. I think she said ten or eleven. She only submitted inquiry forms for those schools. So she was not on any other university lists. They created a specific Gmail for her. Great tip. Create your own college email.

Dan Korus: Wow. Nice. Yep. Good.

Brent Bode: By the time she was at May first making the decision on what school she was going to, she had sixty thousand emails.

Dan Korus: From other other schools as well. that can't just be from thirteen or ten schools or dude.

Brent Bode: All of the schools who were able to like name by her, all those other pieces, it was so many. And so her point to the rest of us was when a student doesn't reply to your email, this is probably why, because they are so inundated. and we have students who will walk around, they give information now instead of writing your name on like an inquiry card. You have a QR code with your information, we scan it, then we get your name and address. We'll see students at some of our national college fairs where there's a hundred plus colleges, if not two hundred, and they'll just have every school scan their QR code. And we all look at each other and we're like, rip to your inbox. Like there you are gonna get so much stuff.

Dan Korus: It is crazy.

Brent Bode: So for as much availability as there is to information, it's

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: an overwhelming amount that I think a lot of people also struggle to intake what it is because they hear one thing from one school and they don't know whether to apply that to another school or not. Yeah. And that can be a real that's challenging I th that'd be challenging for anybody, even the most organized person would not necessarily be able to keep that that information organized.

[37:06] what's changed about how students apply in 13 years

Dan Korus: Yeah, my advice stays the same. Go on go on campus, if at all possible. Like I think I think that's the only way to know. Like you're not gonna be able to tell from an email, right? It's know what you care about and go on campus. Yeah. You know, I've there's a lot of like negative stuff in the news about as we get down to the bottom of Gen Z and the beginning of Gen Alpha, you know, about like their work ethic or their values or like what they do, you know, and like how they talk and like You know, they're to me it just kinda sounds like they're not as maybe they don't have as a of a complicit attitude about being in the workplace. They're very in tune with their values and I think that's admirable and that's something that has been talked about on this podcast a fair bit. Have what have you noticed from the admissions side? You know, 'cause you gotta you get to see high schoolers and you get also get to work closely with like student employees too, right? So You know, as a as a boots on the ground arbiter, you know, like what what are you seeing generationally?

Brent Bode: The biggest change is just how delayed and close to the deadline some of our younger generations push things to. Before we would see like about a third of our applications come in like the week of the deadline. And now it's even more than that. And students waiting until the deadline to submit applications to get their information in.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: They often don't realize that like ordering a transcript also takes more than a day. to have it processed and then sent to us and for us to review it and add it to the file and all those things.

Dan Korus: It happens with these things called stamps.

Brent Bode: Yeah. my god. Well at least it's electronically received. For the most part. Not every school. But

Dan Korus: Now, okay, good. Okay, good. Yeah. huh.

Brent Bode: those delays are really prevalent. and some years it's not as much and it's always interesting to see even though, you know, you have a a kind of trope within a generation on what it feels like, every once in a while we'll have a year where it's like, Wow, everyone's actually like really on top of stuff this year. I wonder what what was in the water for this group of babies when they were born that's like has made them not be like their peers. So there's always variance among it. But that delay, that push to the end, and then asking for leeway past deadlines. we've always had that. It's always been available, but I would say we see more of those students pushing that limit or making decisions really late and then asking for that leeway. And that's again where we come in with that like learning opportunity. We're not a school where that deadline is such a hard deadline that you're losing full opportunity at scholarships and admission and housing. You still get all of those. We still ensure that you're gonna have a place to live and that you'll get a financial aid package.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But it does delay things for you and that still has its own ramification when you're now trying to make that trip to come see campus, you've got even less time to do that now.

Dan Korus: So they're they're paying money to delay their decision when they are admitted. And then they're close to the deadline on applying. They sound busy, dude. Like do you think they're just busier? You think they have more on their plate? Or no? They don't have as much on their plate? I don't know. So what is it?

Brent Bode: I think it's that they don't have things on their plate. But I think what you'd said, that attitude, I think there is some listlessness that comes with the way that it feels like the world is turning. Got it. You know, that when you grow up hearing that there's not gonna be money, that there's not you're never gonna be able to retire. that that's really hard to reckon with as a young person when you haven't even had a chance to try to make it on your own. So I have to imagine that for some students it is that like, well, it ultimately doesn't matter. And that's not necessarily a great way to go about things, in my opinion, but I

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: can see how that type of attitude will come through from someone who feels like, well, if it's always gonna be challenging, what's the incentive for me to do the work ahead of time? Who does that benefit? And it doesn't really benefit anybody because they also still get to get their way. they'll still get reviewed, they'll still get in, they can still join a club even though school has started.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: Those types of things I think can point to what comes across as laziness, I don't always believe that it's actually laziness as much as it's the overwhelming amount of information that we all deal with on a daily basis now. Right. Our phones really have brought a lot to us, but it's also overwhelmed. Like I said when we were first talking of like Yeah. Going to that many museums and learning that much history and culture walking around these ancient cities, some that are as old as Roman era. Like, yeah, that's a lot to to like grasp and take in. I wasn't thinking about any other deadlines. I was on vacation, but like, you know, not thinking about my daily life. Meanwhile, my bills are still rolling in. I was still getting do I still paid a water bill sitting at a bar. My husband looked over, he's like, Are you really paying a water bill? Meanwhile, his friend from college was sitting there replying to a work email. And it's like, Yeah, life still goes on.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And we're just from an era that just get it done. Just move it along. And

Dan Korus: Just do it.

Brent Bode: we can keep we can keep doing what we need to do. But I think students in this time now, they expect things immediately. And then if something has to be delayed, they're like, Well, then I can be delayed also. Got it. And I I don't hate that.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think well, it it's healthy, right? in some ways because, you know, we shouldn't be stressed out about small things like that. Yeah. And that that's good to some degree to be able to recognize some of these events as okay, well it's it's gonna happen, I will be okay and I can focus on what's in front of me. it's also kinda sad, you know, that they're having to deal with so much information that they're needing to trade time for money. that early on in their life. And that that's a calculation that they're gonna make where, you know, a couple thousand dollars to buy them a month's worth of decision time is something that, you know, is crossing their mind.

Brent Bode: It's interesting too like I 'cause now I supervise full grown adults who are Gen Z. You know, we've hit that point where Gen Z is is in the working class. There are young professionals.

Dan Korus: Yeah. What do you notice there?

Brent Bode: I I thought I would notice like more difference in comparison to kind of the maybe older version of Gen Z and the youngest of the millennials that I've supervised over time. But there really isn't in my experience, there's not like a huge change. I'd

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: say millennials and Gen Z folks that I've supervised tend to operate close to the same. For the most part, people just want to be treated like they have lives outside of work and My office does a really good job of acknowledging that. We demand a lot of time from our staff. They travel for three months of the year. Yeah. And so we are balancing what their lives are like because they don't work an eight to five job. Most of the year they do, but we work evenings, we work weekends, they're on airplanes, they get back at midnight, they're supposed to be at work at eight AM the next day. They're expected to then get on a in a rental car to drive to the airport to fly somewhere else. So Part of that requires acknowledging that they have a life outside of this job and ensuring that they also get to experience that life because that is how we lose people, is when they get worn out from the cyclical kind of rat race that is what college admissions is like. And we me, my supervisor, my colleague, all of us that supervise the admissions counseling team really try to make sure that like that is what they're experiencing is that they get to have their home life and can still do this job to the best of their ability. And I think that is also why we've retained our counselors as much as we have in comparison to listening to them talk about their friends who are quitting jobs before they hit three years. They're jumping ship to do something else. They're jumping industries.

[44:32] how to protect your team's life outside of work

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: You know, they actually have found a place while we don't pay a ton, they realize that they're really well supported in their job. And I've had I've had a counselor who was like told me she was gonna leave and then a few months later was like, Actually, no, I would like the permanent position. Like, can I is there a spot? Can I stay here? I've realized that this is actually better than anything I've found elsewhere. Wow. And that warmed my heart. That made me feel really good.

Dan Korus: Yeah, that's great. Like, hey, I'm gonna go look for other options. Wait, you guys are the best option. Yeah, I'm so good. that feels so good. That's so nice. Yeah, that's an informed that's an informed compliment. That's so great. What do you if if there's a boss out there who has a team and they're they don't feel like their team has good work life balance, you know, that their time is protected, what are some of the things that you do that you think they could learn from?

Brent Bode: I think having a better sense of what those things are that they're missing.

Dan Korus: Okay.

Brent Bode: We I've supervised I don't know how many versions of Teams at this point now. quite a few. And it has never always been the same as to what that work life balance means. Because for some folks, they might be single, don't have family in the area, and for them it's literally just having time away. they don't care where, they just want to be able to be away. and we have remote work pol policies. And so that also allows for them to take a longer weekend where maybe they're working somewhere else on one of those days. And then for others, they're married, they have kids, they have pets they're taking care of, they're balancing a sick parent. Mm-hmm. Supervising those two people at the same time doesn't mean that their needs are exactly the same, but I can afford what that flexibility is based on who they are. And it feels like it's our job as the managers of those people to create that unified experience so that it doesn't feel inequitable across the board, but that it meets the needs of what everyone also needs to accomplish. We have great flexibility with like, you know, you have sick appointments, you need to go to the doctor's office, things like that. Yeah. So the benefit of being a state institution is we have some of those things that are just culturally part of what it is like to work here.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But having that that in-between piece of knowing Some of the small personal details about an employee really does make it a lot easier to give them an extra inch that will feel like a mile to them. And

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: I never pressure people I supervise into sharing all their personal details. That's not necessary. But when they are able to be more open with me and they feel more comfortable asking for the things that they need, me and my manager have a much easier time discussing. Well, how can we make this fit within our office policies to allow them the opportunity to get what they need while also making that available to others who might be in that position later, never in a different way, and trying to draft policies that fit that type of experience.

Dan Korus: Yeah. that's a great answer. Yeah, I think I mean it sounds obvious that work life balance would mean something different to different, you know, different kinds of people, but

Brent Bode: I feel people just a lot of managers feel like they have to write something that just is like, well, this is the letter of the law.

Dan Korus: yeah.

Brent Bode: And part of that is the power structure of executive level leadership versus middle manager.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And when our executives level has given us the broader reach of manage your teams the way they need to be managed, it's allowed us as middle managers to actually create. meaningful policies that are office specific to us, the way the registrar office operates and financial aid operate is not the same as admissions. While we all have the same lead, we all report to the same associate vice provost, our offices are different. We operate on different timelines. We have different levels of staffing. We have different needs. And sometimes it feels like we see another office and like, well, why do they get to do this? It's like, yeah, well yeah, but we get to do that, remember, you know, and so we we help our team also navigate not feeling the animosity from our colleagues as if they're the enemy. And it's like, no, they just have different needs as a a unit.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay. I like that. I have I have some questions. how are we doing on time, by the way?

Brent Bode: Yeah.

Dan Korus: Okay, sweet. So I want to talk a little bit about emotional intelligence because I think that and I'm just gonna make some broad assumptions. I would imagine that that's like a top job skill, not only for your student ambassadors who are gonna be like up in front of like families, parents, prospective students, but also for your admissions counselors and you're you know, you've managed both and interact with both on on the regular. Is it is it like how important is that as a skill set out of the other skill sets of the job?

Brent Bode: It's definitely something we look for. You know, we we interface with thousands of people every year. Yeah. And so being able to relate to someone, being able to understand the vibe, like really that's off honestly what it feels like it comes down to is what what is the vibe that they're looking for in terms of how to communicate with them and to meet them where they are. You know, we train our counselors. And the student staff too, to just know that like everyone you talk to comes from a different background, they have different experiences, and they have different expectations of what the conversation is going to be. No matter what they're talking about. We all come in with some type of expectation. when we talk to one another, whether it's matched or not doesn't necessarily mean it's a good or bad conversation, but it does mean that there's going to be some type of exchange that we are either thinking meets That expectation or not, and pivoting from there. And so seeing if folks have that ability to think on their feet, to understand that others are not always going to have had a positive experience is a really important piece of all of that. We don't ask like questions like that in the interview process. Yeah. But it is more of the way that we ask some generalized questions, things that might just be personality based even? Like are you able to just relate to me if I ask you what your favorite color is? Like what

[51:57] how do you hire for emotional intelligence?

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: do you just say blue and then stare at me? Or do you say blue and this and that and then what is yours? You know, where where is that lean in that comes with that that feels like okay, we're you know, we're bringing our heads closer, we're bringing our hearts closer together. Does it feel like we've actually created a connection here? That usually shows that folks have that type of emotional intelligence that we are people and you are talking to another person. I always I've had a couple of instances where I have students who come up and they speak so quietly at the table. And usually we're in a gym filled with people and it's so loud and I'm already kind of hard of hearing as it is. So

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: you know, they'll be whispering to me. And I like do the hands on the table and the full lean in with my ear and I'm like, say that again. And then they back up and I'm like, No, no, no, no, no, get up here. I cannot hear you say it into my ear. and usually when I have that kind of coaxing I realize they actually do feel more comfortable, even when they're intimidated. They know they're talking to a a staff member of the university. This is the guy that's reading my file. Blah blah blah. I do oftentimes see that that student feels better because they realize that I really do want to hear them. Yeah. And that I am actually trying to have this conversation with them. And that it comes across really positively, even though at first they're usually like wide eyed, like, my God.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: So those those are the types of things we look for is can you have that connection?

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: Some of that the conversational piece can be learned. public speaking can always be taught.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But that that ability to directly connect with someone and just ask a question besides how are you really goes goes a long way.

Dan Korus: I will always remember the tour guide exercise we did where we would all take turns giving like a mock tour stop in a classroom full of people. And every time you set a verbal filler, everybody would do a squeaky chicken.

Brent Bode: The best.

Dan Korus: Yeah, and it would like interrupt you. It

Brent Bode: Yeah.

Dan Korus: was so tough. But what a valuable skill to be able to have. I think that stayed with me. Very much, even though I I have a lot of verbal fillers now. But now I yeah, get to listen to my own voice for hours as I edit the edit edit the podcast. So I'm like, I say write a lot or you know a lot. so I I try to I try to I try to moderate that. It sounds like when you're hiring for people and you're looking for people, you you almost have to have emotional intelligence to be able to spot it. Yeah. It has to it has to And you ask a disarming question like what is your favorite color? I think, you know, and so I listened to this. I listen to a really good podcast. It's called Roast the Post. And every week they take a job ad and they just get into it.

Brent Bode: Ha ha.

Dan Korus: Yeah. And some are really good. And some are not so good. But then you learn what's good about this versus not good. And there's so many things in there that I've like never thought About anyways, I think everybody should be submitting their job ads to go get critiqued by external consultants who have no skin in the skin in the game. It's funny and awesome. Anyways, I'll send it to you after this and I'll Yeah, that'll get really

Brent Bode: Yes.

Dan Korus: good. But you know, I think that it it's people people think that silly questions in an interview process are a waste of time. And I love them. I think we learned a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah. Like everybody practices and knows how to answer well, what's your biggest strength in the workplace? Tell us about a time where you had conflict with an individual.

Brent Bode: Three words your coworkers would describe you as.

Dan Korus: Yeah. But you guys asked me what beverage are you you know? And I was like, Shit, if I say milk, am I like is there a wrong answer? And it wasn't actually Really? what's the wrong answer? What is there red?

Brent Bode: There's no rock. Describe it. It's yeah. If anything, it's it's a how do you defend your your answer? What is the what's your reasoning for it? Like not just did you pull a a drink out of thin air. We don't c we never cared what the drink was. We also did cereal for a long time. What cereal would you be? And

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: it was about how you described yourself. Were you fun? Was it very straightforward? Usually the answers that people picked for themselves also reflected what their personality was like too. And we were in a position where we wanted a a group of tour guides that was a little bit of everybody. Yep. We're trying to appeal to the masses. So we don't want everyone who answers monster energy drink because I'm so upbeat and it's I'm so awake and lively. I don't need 30 tour guides that are over the top awake and lively. Like I need some milks in there also. Those students also go to college. So yeah, having that type of diversity of thought was always really fun to hear.

Dan Korus: Cool. Yeah, I think it's a it's a skill to be able to hire for emotional intelligence. And I think it's a hard thing to to hire for. But yeah, it's feeling the energy, it's feeling the vibe, feeling their actions and and how they are and the interview. I I hasn't in my experience hiring, I don't know if I've found the perfect way to suss it out, but I do think you can get like a really great inkling. You know, I mean there's always risk in hiring, right? You'll never have like the perfect hiring process, but Yeah, and it and it sucks to be able to say go with your gut, 'cause you know, that's not an inclusive hiring strategy. You know, and we're all gonna have so many biases that we bring to the table that that's

Brent Bode: Like ten personality hires.

Dan Korus: That's how that's how I'd end up with the ten yeah, personality hires who all drink monster. Yeah. Do you think okay, so I have a I have a better question. Back when back when you were getting advice in in in your college, your college journey and you got the advice to go into, you know, environmental sciences, urban urban planning with the minor in geology. And now you kind of get to do that in two three ways. I think, you know, you gotta be there for high school students, you get to be there for people who are kind of admissions counselors, then it also sounds like you're there on sort of like an executive level for other people in the organization. Do you feel like you're giving the same kind of advice that your academic advisor did, or are you giving different advice?

Brent Bode: I think part of especially being in like middle management is knowing the difference of who you're talking to. Knowing your stakeholder, what their their aim is and what their goals are is what's so important in all of that. Having a better sense of how to go about talking to the people you're talking to. Mm-hmm. And so I would say it's not the same person to person because You know, advising a student on where to go to college is not the same type of conversation I'm having with the director of admissions and a associate dire associate vice provost in the room while we're talking about the aim of our organization or what the requirements for admission should be, what our peers are doing. That's a much different level of conversation that we're having. Honestly, the stakes are higher in that conversation because the decisions we make affect all of the students applying. versus that conversation with the student who does get to change their mind, they get to change their major, they get to fuck up a bunch of times and say, okay, well, I'm just gonna try again. We have a legal mandate in our office to follow state policies, to ensure fairness in the review process and scholarshipping process. So there's a level of maybe anxiety that comes with that from the professional staff member side of things. Because we are the stakeholders that have that type of important value associated with the university. And so it feels different. I think we operate differently because we are in that space. Mm-hmm. I bet you if there were students in that space for those conversations, it also would sound differently too.

[59:22] how to find a job in higher ed that isn't teaching

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: I think people would maybe speak differently about how we go about things if there were some direct people in the room that were going to be affected by that.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm. I love that. I like that a lot. You know, it it just seems like it seems like there's a lot it seems like your job is mostly leadership and emotional intelligence right now.

Brent Bode: Yeah, for the most part. I I recruit in a couple of very small territories, but for the most part I oversee the admissions counselors and then I'm connected to some of the policy side of things that we do.

Dan Korus: Yeah. What do you think and and it makes you happy. You like doing it.

Brent Bode: I think being able to grow in this role to have experienced that boots on the ground, like you described it, of like being in the high schools, meeting with other counselors and the high schoolers and families. that's what really brought me into this work. But I had one of those childhoods where I like didn't know a job existed, but I realized looking back that was something I'd always thought about. I always thought I wanted to be a teacher, but I never wanted to teach. Like the idea of teaching was not ever really appealing, but I loved being at school and I liked the experience of school and I liked how organized it was. Mm-hmm. And so it took until I was towards the end of college to realize that there's a job like this that I do now where it's like, I can work at a school and not be a teacher. Like that there are so many other staff roles out there that that provide an education for students in a meaningful way without me having to be in front of a classroom lecturing kids who don't want to listen to me. That just never found it appealing.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And so that was that like, there is a job out here for me. Also there's no undergraduate degree in higher education. I had to get a master's in that, which I did. That's fine. It just took more time. But that is really what brought me in to the role of an admissions counselor. And what has kept me is I love doing application review. I like reading student essays, seeing what they put together, getting to see and shape a class as well of what students look like coming in, these changes that we see on the year to year.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: It's crazy to read absolutely wild stories about what teenagers do.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: I've admitted of a national jump rope champion to the institution, spelling bee champions, it's just stuff you never knew. existed and then all of a sudden here you are reading an Olympians college essay. You know, it's just like, Well yeah, you can come here, of course.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: That part of it really is is fun. And that's the administrative side of things that I've really grown to enjoy doing and has allowed I've been very fortunate to be here during times when there are open opportunities for me to grow and take on new projects and to also innovate it into being better. Admissions is one of those things that for a long time has always been one way. And I would say the past 10 years we're in a very new era of colleges are all trying all kinds of new things to be more accessible, to be easier for students to get into, to understand, to navigate. so to be part of a group of people that is just trying to improve the process is really the fun part of it.

Dan Korus: You gave me such a perfect segue to ask about AI. But I really just want to point out that like well can I ask a quick question? Like when you wanted to do marine biology, like were you were you interested in like critters? Like what were you interested in?

Brent Bode: it wasn't really just like one thing. It I I'm a water baby in general. I have I did swimming since I was three years old. I spent my entire childhood. You know what it's like to grow up in California. I grew up in a pool. A

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: neighborhood pool. And pretty much from the second it opened in late spring until early fall, I did summer rec swim team. That

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: was something I stopped doing in college and really came back around to it a couple years ago.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: So I I am just like I love the water. I also live in Washington.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And so it really was just the the overall experience. I do love like I always liked animals and that type of I had lots of animal books and I had a bunch of marine biology books as a kid.

Dan Korus: I was just curious because you know, I was wondering like if it stemmed from like a deep deep empathy for like sea creatures or something because the entire like your entire timeline is helping people. Yeah. Right. And like you fell in love with helping people and wanting to teach people and be there for them, and now you're doing it in unique and novel ways. And like no one just like sits down and reads high school essays for sport. I know my mom does it a lot and you do it too. But like no one just like is like sits down for fun and is like, I'm gonna go read a bunch of high school essays, but you and you don't even know the kids, but you're here you are like getting a kick out of it and like seeing like the diversity of the human experience and helping them make like a big next step and then having empathy for them throughout the process and leaning in for the people who are soft spoken and really caring about the people and caring about You know, your staff

Brent Bode: Yeah.

Dan Korus: Like you really care you really care about people, Brent. Yeah.

Brent Bode: Definitely.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: It was that kid that was really soft spoken, very shy. I was known for crying a lot. Class And thank you. Yeah. Not a not afraid to do it. And I had a third grade teacher who who knew who I was. Her daughter was the same grade as my oldest sister, and so she also knew who I was since I was in a stroller. And

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: knew that I was of an emotional at the drop of a hat would cry over anything kind of kid.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And she I'll never forget, she gave me permission at the start of the school year that if I needed to cry, that I was allowed to leave the classroom, I did not have to tell her. and I could go step outside the door, sit on the bench, get out what I needed to get out, collect myself and could come back in.

[66:48] where a helper's management style actually comes from

Dan Korus: Wow.

Brent Bode: And so like that is how dramatic of a child I was.

Dan Korus: Yeah. But that leniency and care for meeting you where you're at. It's like, Hey, I don't need to know about the personal details, just go take care of yourself. Yeah. That's kind of your management style right now. Wow, that's special.

Brent Bode: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so as someone who really needed that type of care as a kid, and being looking back to like as a queer child, not knowing I was gay when I was younger and getting into middle school and starting to kinda understand and figure that out really made me feel like an outsider. I was at Catholic school for thirteen years. I had no exposure really to anything.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And so part of that was also like I did have trouble making friends with boys. I had more girlfriends. But even then I never felt like I had a lot of friends. And so some of that isolation that I felt also was traumatizing in a way, I guess. Not not really, because how I've come through it. But

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: it did teach me to stand up for myself and to also look out for others. and to see those people in the crowd and make sure that they're not lost in wandering or feel like they're flailing on their own. and as I got into high school, I had a very supportive high school experience.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: everyone really cares for each other there. It's very, very fortunate. And that really started that like kind of helper attitude. one of my volunteer things I did in high school was going into San Francisco. in a very low income part of downtown San Francisco and we would tutor some of the students at one of the our like brother school there. And that was one of the first kind of consistent ways I realized I really enjoyed both being in schools and also helping others.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And that has led to a lot of just type of volunteer types of experiences. I am I'm definitely a helper. I'm always happy to help someone with whatever it is. Just happy to get you through it.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Do you think if

Brent Bode: Now too.

Dan Korus: do you think if you hadn't gone through that as a kid you wouldn't be as much of a helper now, or do you think it would have come through in different ways?

Brent Bode: I think it'd be different ways 'cause my family is really like that also. We are all in that same kind of ball game. My mom's a speech pathologist for a preschool at a school district in California. my oldest sister owns a dance performance company

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: with her partners and so they they teach class day in, day out. They have built their own hip hop community in the Bay Area. I really have always been surrounded by

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: people who are like that. I think it would have just come through in different ways, but having some of those instances of seeing adults be cool was really what allowed me to also realize that I can also be like that.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: I think the hardest part is when I'm not feeling like helping someone, not feeling guilt.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: Catholic part, coming through of not feeling like I have to help everybody. that's the part of stepping back that I think is some of the most challenging.

Dan Korus: Dang. So a family, a family of teachers and a family of helpers.

Brent Bode: Yeah, definitely.

Dan Korus: Dang. Thank thank God we've got people like you out there. That's so special. Yeah, I'm really thankful. Do you when when you're feeling guilty that you can't help everyone? What what do you do? Do you just kind of su suffer through it or put those feelings on the proverbial shelf? I don't know. Like how do you how do you deal with your Catholic shame?

Brent Bode: How much time do we have?

Dan Korus: Yeah, as much as you need.

Brent Bode: I think for me it's it just feels like frustration. I don't tend to like hovel in on myself or get depressed or anything along those lines. but it is more of that frustration that because I feel like I have come to the realization that if we did all operate a little more kindly with one another, there would be just less issues in the world with each other, in the workplace.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And that that That's what I start to feel is just that frustration of convincing myself that it's still worth doing even when others aren't, and to not feel like you want to then just give up on trying to be a good person. And it is certainly not like I'm a good person everywhere I go. Definitely

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: be rude in a store to someone who's being rude to me.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But it's not my default. It's not what I try to be like. Yeah. And I understand that others have their own life situations that might have put them in a bad situation too. But I

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: I make an attempt to not act like that to others when I'm in that position. So that's the frustration of like, well, why can't you take a step back and realize that you need a minute to yourself? Why don't you step out of this grocery store and go have a cry? You might feel better at the end of it kind of thing.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But I think that's where I end up landing is just usually that type of frustration that I feel. And having people in my life to be able to talk to about it is is what solves that. Having a husband who's very supportive, friends, family members. you know, I have a very large circle of people, I'm very fortunate that way. That having people to talk to is is really important. It's it is what alleviates some of those more stressful times.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Do you still have dog? Yeah. Thank god. Okay.

Brent Bode: I do. See on a rose.

Dan Korus: I didn't want to bring that up if you didn't. But I dogs are such great co regulators. Yes.

Brent Bode: Definitely. Well maybe not mine. She's a chihuahua. So

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: No, she is extremely cuddly. she is someone like if we start crying in our house, she wants to lick your tears. Like we know that's what it actually is. But it really seems like she cares when you're crying 'cause she tries to get it all up in your face and your chest. Yeah. But really she's just trying to lick the salt off your face.

Dan Korus: No, no, she's trying to do both. She's trying to be helpful. She's she's she's getting what's hers, you know, and also you know, trying to be there for you. So now that we've gotten nice and emotional, you want to talk about robots? How has I impacted the admissions process? Great segue. Yeah. See, wasn't that better than when you're talking about technology and change? See, then we got a okay, I was born to podcast.

Brent Bode: I would say, you know, every school is is really taking a different approach to how they're handling AI. A lot of them are just leaving it to the faculty and the faculty unions to to kind of either embrace or not.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: We we're not staffed well enough to like hunt people down when their essays are written by

Dan Korus: AI Yeah, yeah.

Brent Bode: We can tell. I would say we're pretty good. Like our office, our team will often send like, Hey, do you think this one is? Not because we're pursuing anything, but more of a just like, Do you think this one is? Let's run it through a a test kind of deal.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent Bode: And it's more just informational and we find interesting to see can we spot it or not?

[74:13] how AI is reshaping the admissions essay

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: We have a couple of folks with creative writing degrees on our team and so it is always particularly of interest when those pop up of like Does my writing sound like that or not?

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But it does not feel as widespread from the essays we see. We're also a test optional school now, so not every applicant is submitting an essay. We view it with a kind of what I'd call an unfortunate lens of you're I don't want to say you're welcome to submit it that way, but like I said, you're not we're not gonna do anything about it. But if this is how you're gonna go about college. it's gonna be a lot more challenging for you later on. Because

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: the professors are more likely to not be tolerant of it.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And that's where you're gonna run into trouble is when you think you can just because you got away with it in the admissions process doesn't mean you're gonna get away with it in all of your other courses. And some professors are also okay with it. and so there's going to be times where students also need to know how to utilize it because that's literally going to be part of the homework. So it it is an interesting time. There

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: are schools that are a zero tolerance policy. There are schools out there that will rescind admission from students. But it's still so hard to know most of the time or to have the confidence to then make that type of decision or policy change.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: It does still feel really early. Yeah. It's it's so prevalent and yet it's also so so much in its infancy that It's hard to navigate.

Dan Korus: I would be really scared to to make a a policy on that if if I was you know in a in a management position in an admissions because I feel like college admissions in particular, you're I would I would really want to make sure that my process is fair enough that like first generation students and students who, you know, are coming from immigrant families or just non traditional backgrounds have you know, equal, if not elevated access to get into school. yeah, you know, and like good o good opportunities, you know. So and that that's just my my personal belief. Yeah. But what something that I've found and this this is something that I know through Substack. So I'm not a hundred percent expert on the facts. I will try and put some references in the in the details, but they rolled out a an AI detection checker. So that way you can go AI detect someone's essay and it'll give you a a relative proportion. Yeah. And that really pissed the community off because and what I didn't know and what I've found through this kind of happening on a platform that I'm active on is that AI detection will skew more AI for students or or people who are writing with English as a second language, because they're much more formulaic with how they're learning directly. Yeah, they're learning direct and and so they write more like They write in patterns that are more like AI and their English is often better and they break less rules. Yeah. So it doesn't come off as like as human. So when you're using an AI detector, and even for more like formal right where it's really gussied up, it'll skew AI detectors will unfairly skew it as more AI. And so and also people with neurodivergent backgrounds, just because of how they think and how they write. Yeah. So if you were a s a school that said, uh-uh, like if your SA Like if we were gonna look at a policy of enforcement, yeah, and they were saying, Well, essays of above a certain threshold percent AI detection or whatever, yeah, we're not gonna allow those as as admittance entries, I would be really terrified because students who with I would really want us to look at that research and really understand what we're doing because people with English as a second language or neurodivergent students who, you know, could really use this school opportunity are gonna might get discriminated against. Right. Yeah.

Brent Bode: Fascinating. Yeah, that's really but

Dan Korus: Right? Isn't it? I don't know.

Brent Bode: also makes sense. I mean, like the logic behind that I think makes total sense. Anytime

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: you're learning a language, you're learning the like very formal, exact way of writing. which is not how we we as native English speakers will write or talk about things. And for the most part, we see enough spelling mistakes and grammar mistakes in essays that like We know it's not AI, you know, like we can tell when it is. That is like the unfortunate reality is we actually like look for mistakes now and view them positively. Which also feels so silly. Whereas before I would

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: ding students in my comments about a file if it was written poorly, and now I'm like, Thank God, essay was written poorly, you know? It's like I know this wasn't shoved through some type of generator to be something it's not. Yeah,

Dan Korus: Yeah, absolutely.

Brent Bode: that's really interesting.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Okay. So I have I've got four more questions. Are you ready? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. so fourth to last or third to last. Wait, whatever. Yeah. I graduated, I promise. If you if you had a a new a new coworker or something and and you're gonna mentor someone and you're gonna teach to be more emotionally intelligent, how would you do it?

Brent Bode: I feel like what's really required is exposure. I think the people who struggle the most being able to relate to one another haven't had the experience of actually having to relate to one to to other people, especially people unlike themselves.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: It is kind of the way we train our counselors, is like, you've never done a culture? Great. Well come with this person, you'll learn. Because you're just gonna start interacting with high schooler after high schooler after transfer student after parent who are asking you rapid fire questions where you're both trying to relate to them and also give them direct concrete information. And oftentimes folks start with just that concrete information, but don't have that follow up that keeps someone at the table.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: And so I feel like exposure to more people of different backgrounds. is what builds upon that. It's getting to know them. It's not just a one hour special speaker series of getting to hear someone with a different background tell you their life story. That doesn't you're not relating to someone when you hear them grandstand for an hour.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: You get to learn about them, but you're not getting to relate. and to me, emotional intelligence is the ability to relate the your lived experience your emotions that you experienced through time, whether I experienced it or not, being able to hear you and hear what you're saying from the inside out is what really builds upon that. For us tour guides, admissions counselors, you learn that on the job whether you have it or not. We generally look for people who are able to do that. And not everyone's successful at picking up those types of pieces, but I would say that exposure to just hundreds of people really does build upon that. like new managers, that might be what's most challenging is when you've not managed many people, you don't have that ability to just start doing it. When I started managing people, there was no class, there was no onboarding. It was here's your direct reports, manage them. It's like, well, that did not help me at all. It also didn't help because they were my peers and then now suddenly I'm their manager with no management experience.

[81:38] how do you move from peer to supervisor?

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: So that part was challenging. because I was navigating a two-fold experience of I already not only did I have the emotional intelligence of who to be able to interact with them, I did know their personal details because we were friends, our friends, still friends with them. But

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: now I'm suddenly also having to do the management disciplinary You didn't submit this form. you're requesting this time. I can't approve this. Whatever those conversations might be, that also created a different dynamic that I had no one helping me through that process.

Dan Korus: That's tough.

Brent Bode: But that exposure to those people is also what's gotten me here and my ability to manage my team more readily, right off the bat, I set expectations day one as to what our personal relationship can or will look like and then allow us to build upon those building blocks.

Dan Korus: That's cool. I yeah, no one's no one's said that yet. And I think you're right. I think you have a good point. No one's said no one's said exposure yet. but a lot of people have said practice. So I I think that's I think that's similar. But yeah, like getting to know a bunch of different people in in this background, you know, and in this context of like you're here to serve them. Right. And it's not what you're not just saying is, okay, just go to a conference hall and hang around two hundred people. You know, I was at I was at like the world's largest fantasy conference, fantasy sci fi conference and there was like like tens of thousand thousands. It felt like tens of thousands, it was probably just thousands of people there. I was like my emotional intelligence. If anything I felt overstimulated and like I wanted to be in a dark hole. But it was very fun. But yeah, you're saying go with the intention to listen. Right. And like to be around them to like try and serve them. So I yeah that's such good advice I think. Yeah, you're forgetting you're forgetting how not helpful we are next to you, Brent. Yeah.

Brent Bode: Yeah. And the other part of it too is like how can you talk about yourself in a way that shows you've done some semblance of I don't know, self thought, self development.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: Like there's oftentimes a line you need to have between being a supervisor and an employee. But if the employee only sees you as an authoritarian figure, there's never gonna be a level of respect that that can be leveled with.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And that is also a really important part. And that requires the person who's needing this to do that type of self-reflection and say, well, who am I? And how can I present myself in a more, I'm going to use the word normal, in a more normal way that makes me come across like another human being who also has a life outside of whatever this direct relationship is.

Dan Korus: Yeah. How do you bring how do you bring yourself in a way that allows other people to relate to you? Yeah, I guess practice, right?

Brent Bode: Yeah, I think practices are great. I think my exposure kind of that.

Dan Korus: Yeah. No, I think more exposure. No, I think it's perfect. I yeah, I'm not editing you at all. I'm not refining it. I think it's a really great answer. I love this. Okay. For someone whose first day of work is tomorrow, and what I'm excited about with this question, I ask everyone this, by the way. I ask everyone these same four questions. yeah, okay. But you actually have seen a bunch of people whose it has been their first day of work.

Brent Bode: Many.

Dan Korus: I know. So this is that that's why I'm so excited. For someone whose first day of work is tomorrow, what's your advice for them?

Brent Bode: Show up.

Dan Korus: Advice.

Brent Bode: Please be on time. We did have someone start who was like late on their first day and we were like, What is going on? And they were lost. It was okay. First

Dan Korus: Okay, good.

Brent Bode: week in the Pacific Northwest, and you know where old Maine is.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent Bode: So for us, we have a very low, low key first day. we're always happy if they even have their email set up by the end of the day, because our tech services can be that slow sometimes.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But we, because of what the roles of admissions counselors are, the expectation is that you know a little bit about everything on campus.

Dan Korus: Mm, mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: And so they just do a lot of reading. We have video interviews with academic departments and like student services from across campus. So we just have them start engaging all of the material, which is like a really overwhelming way to start, especially if they don't have any experience with our institution.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But What that does create that I've noticed over the years is they start pulling out the questions that they are like curious about first. And that allows us to better understand what are they picking up quickly and what are the building blocks they don't have that we should start with.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: We have a series of trainings they go through. They're pretty well set at this point.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But when I get to hear the things are like, well, what can you explain what this is or can you tell me more about what this thing is? I understand that that's something that they are not comfortable with at all. And we can go spend more time on and we'll most likely launch them into the rest of the information even faster.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: So it's finding those bigger gaps. And when you can fill in those bigger gaps, all of the smaller ones fall into place so much faster because they don't feel like they have this big gap of knowledge that they're missing on day one.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: Also just like not overloading them with like stuff to do. That is why we're like, just explore all the paper materials, explore the website, read the training manual, start figuring out what you don't know so that we can focus on what you do.

Dan Korus: Show up and get curious. Yeah. Yeah. It's such like a good training strategy too, because I think so many of us expect people to show up on the first day and like be productive.

Brent Bode: Yeah, never.

Dan Korus: Definitely, definitely done been guilty of that.

Brent Bode: Our team members don't get to meet with the public for like the first month. Okay. They'll go shadow they'll go shadow stuff, but they are not like doing info sessions. They're not meeting one on one with families. They're shadowing all of that for the first four weeks. And then we set them loose after that.

Dan Korus: Cool. Yeah, that's that's good seeing it. Yeah, that's that's really solid advice. I think I've been in jobs like that where I've showed and I've had a good boss, right, who did who did what you're doing and and been like, Okay, you're just gonna absorb for a while before you do something. And I always feel like this sense of anxiety. I'm like, I'm not contributing to shareholder value now, you know, like am I even am I even like worth my space, you know? It's it's hard. It's so not only do you have to encourage people like yes, you learning and being curious is like productive and valuable.

Brent Bode: Well, when we tell our team it takes a year to know the job because every month we have we do different things and we have different focuses. It is a cycle, it's a year long cycle of recruitment and enrolling. And so you literally can't unless you are coming from another institution where you were doing this job, even then we each school operates differently enough that you really are still spending a full first year learning the ropes of what our institution, what our office does. So it does, it takes a long time to feel like you really are set. And working at admissions is known as a three or thirty career. You either do it for three years and you're out or you are there for thirty. here I am, almost halfway. Yeah, thank you. I always say berrymander old main.

[89:03] career advice for new middle managers

Dan Korus: Yeah. But be pretty badass. Sorry. Yeah.

Brent Bode: What I have noticed, I mean, that after that first year was like, yeah, wow, this was crazy. But then by the second year, I'm like, Okay, well, this was like fun though. And by the third year, I'm like, this is terrible. But then by the fourth year, I'm like, No, I get it now. It is fun. Okay, now I see the cycle. And then by the sixth year, I was like, I'm done with this. I have a three year cycle of self loathing. Okay. And then I come back to it each time.

Dan Korus: Well, that's cool. And it's probably not the exact same thing that brings you back, so you're gaining new appreciation for it over time. And he's also been r you know, going up vertically and ha have have been blessed with vertical mobility, so like, you know, you're not

Brent Bode: It's not been stagnant.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So for someone who is a middle manager or is approaching middle management, maybe they're like a senior team lead or something, what's what's your career advice for them?

Brent Bode: So far it has felt like one of the most challenging positions to be in because you're not in charge, but you are in charge of people. And so there is that balance of you feel the responsibility. I think this is what I wish I was told was like you're gonna feel the responsibility of the people you supervise, but you have essentially no power to make direct change. you can make some changes, you can always be advocating for other types of change, but you're not ever the one that is just saying, this is what we're doing, move forward with it. And so I think learning to manage up is a really important part of both being supervised and also in this middle management position. Because I do train my counselors to manage me. There are more of them than there are me. And so I do my best to instill in them that they have as much control over me as I do of them. We're not a flatline structure, but I do like that our management experience can be what do you need from me as much as me constantly needing things from you? I am there to support their success. Their success means that I'm successful. and that also means that they need to tell me what needs to be done. Sometimes it's something that is my specific job duty that I'm just literally missing. That's always fine. I'm always happy to be reminded. But

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: sometimes it's also what we institutionally or organizationally need. And I can then be the advocate on their behalf.

Dan Korus: Got it.

Brent Bode: And learning to do to to teach them to do that while I do that to my own boss has created a really positive experience because it's allowed for our communication streams to be a lot stronger. It has also allowed for more round table types of discussions on how to go about doing things. Yeah. And they feel like they're respected. So even when the decision doesn't go their way at the end of the day, they still feel like they actually had a voice. it's not the lip service of being in a an all hands type meeting where it's like the executive comes in and says, I'm listening to you, but then no one says anything in the meeting. it's not that experience. We can have a meeting where everyone does say something of their own volition.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: And even though it doesn't go their way at the end, they'll go, Well, I do feel like we set our piece. We've made our position clear and we'll just move ahead with what the decision is. And then that's the middle management part of saying Okay, but we do have to do this now. So I know we all hate this, but here's what we're doing. Let's go forward and make it as best as we can.

Dan Korus: Yeah. Initially when you said I teach my team to manage me, at first I was like, hmm, I wonder what that means. But I think you explained it really well. And if I if I've got it right, it's okay, I'm gonna need things from you and I will make those known. But and you're also gonna need things from me. And I invite you to need things from me. Please make those needs known as soon as possible and I will be there to serve them. And I feel like that's a really great way to memorialize well, not to describe like a servant leadership. Yeah, you know, where it's like, hey, I'm here for you, I am the conduit. Yeah. Please come to me. I'm ready for inputs. That's that's how you describe it?

Brent Bode: Well and the other thing that happens too is I don't have children, but it does kind of feel like this where it's like, well one one of them needs something. Odds are the rest of them also need that thing and they just haven't said it. True. And so if no one tells me that they're all suffering over something, how am I to ever know? And so by instilling that type of experience and that that open means of communication with them, I it has solved problems with other team members that I didn't know they needed assistance or the help or a bigger meeting to talk about whatever thing is that I assumed they already understood how to do. Yeah. And so, you know, I I described as like you are just managing me. It's it's you telling me what needs to be done. And when I can do it and I can accomplish that for you, it means that everyone gets to benefit in the long run. and if it's just a one off type of thing that you're in need of. I don't always ask the right question in my check-ins. I do have one-on-one check-ins weekly with everyone. And I don't always have questions for them or prompts for them. But I start off my check-ins with what do you need? I always frame it that that time is for them. It's not for me. I can send them an email and ask them to do something anytime I want. But that is time that I dedicate for them to come in and level me on what need they need help with, what needs to be done, what they're upset with, what's going on personally. How I can support them otherwise. And that is that's how I view my check ins with them. and I set that tone and that stage with them from their first first week. And it works. It's worked for me for a pretty long time at this point.

Dan Korus: You're such a good boss.

Brent Bode: Well thanks. I tried.

Dan Korus: I know I I will tell you why the admissions turnover is so low. why you why you guys have been able to keep people. I think we've had a hour almost two hour master class in how

Brent Bode: Yeah.

Dan Korus: to have better retention. Yeah, nice. That's solid. I think I think even just the practice of having one on ones is foreign to some managers. You know, or the idea that the idea that Th and the philosophy that That I'm I'm here to enable you to do your work. You know? I am I am an enabler and a conduit, yeah, and a wielder of resources and and attention. Cause no one tells you that, right? Like the job description says you're gonna manage ten to twenty people and be responsible for their output, not you're gonna listen to their needs and then selectively politically raise those and bubble them to the surface of the management hierarchy in a way And maintain these strategic upper level relationships that allow you to get leverage their resources for your team. Like, you know, it's like no one tells you that. but that's what the job is. I think you said it perfectly. So for senior leaders, folks at the top, and I think do you do you have senior in your title, right? Your senior Yeah,

[96:29] advice for senior leaders: go do a day of your team's job

Brent Bode: I have senior in my title, yeah.

Dan Korus: you keep calling yourself middle management, but you also have senior in your title, like that's

Brent Bode: Yeah, but we have associate directors and directors. So there's we have a lot of levels. Senior for us, it's just that I we have another assistant director that I have seniority over.

Dan Korus: I I regret asking 'cause I feel like I need a whiteboard. It's probably not that complicated. but for people at the top who are for people at the top, what's your advice? I

Brent Bode: I think that senior leaders should be doing at least a day of work for everyone they supervise underneath them in some semblance of consistency. Okay. Whether that's yearly, whether that's quarterly. Structures are wildly different. I recognize that sometimes those senior leaders are technically managing a thousand people. So I don't I don't approach that with the idea that they're doing each thousand. jobs, but to have the sense of what the day to day is of the people that you are responsible for, I think is really important. I think that is where that emotional intelligence, when I'm saying like exposure, what are those people exposed to? There is a level, there's like a a ceiling, I think, when you get to a C suite level position that folks start to forget what it's like to actually have to interact with either the public, with clients, with with other stakeholders, with outside company stakeholders that gets forgotten about.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: Not necessarily a fault of their own outside of, you know, unless those type of people choose to do that themselves. It makes me think of what was that show where the boss would come in undercover undercover boss my God. It's called undercover bossed.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: Embarrassing. The boss under

Dan Korus: Right there.

Brent Bode: But like undercover boss really

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: for as dramatic of TV as it was

Dan Korus: Uh-huh.

Brent Bode: showed that type of disconnection. And that I can only imagine how hard running a business is. I don't run one. But if you aren't capable of understanding what the roles are of the people you are responsible for are experiencing, then you're not running a business. You're you're running money. You're not running people.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: And so I think that would really open a lot of eyes for a lot of folks. It also gives time to be able to share those types of grievances of like what what is going on at the top, what is actually happening outside of what a board report might look like or what a trustee report might look like. So much gets distilled as you go up a chain, but so much of the narrative of what happens in a business. happens at that lower level. And distilling that, you can't distill qualitative data. It just doesn't work as well. You have to hear the whole thing. You have to get the full context. You can look at data till you're blue in the face. And if all you care about is a bottom line, that's fine. That's what it is. But that is not what's going to breed a culture of strong business ethics of work ethic among employees who are not making either livable wages or median live livable wages. That is where you start to lose those people because they are then not finding value in their business, in their work, or in their paycheck. So the only way to get to all of those is I think to actually understand the experiences that people are having on the day to day.

Dan Korus: Would love it if senior leaders went and did that and took all that advice. That'd be so great. Yeah. Can you imagine all the profound benefits we'd have across the workplace if senior leaders took that advice?

Brent Bode: Absolutely.

Dan Korus: I hope they listen to this podcast and are like, you know what, Brent and Daniel? I'm gonna go challenge myself and I'm just gonna do like one half day next week. Great. Where I pick someone underneath me and just go hang out with them for a half day, we'll get lunch and talk about it. And you know

Brent Bode: I think so much could be learned.

Dan Korus: Yeah. I do too. Okay, I thought of one more question. Yeah. For high schoolers. Mm-hmm. What what's one piece of advice you have for them?

Brent Bode: Mine is always to have fun with the process. Okay. You know, we talked about how stressful it can be for so many families. And it is such an exciting time. If you are wanting to go to college and that's on your horizon, you know, it's it's not for everyone. I'm the first one to say college is not for everyone, which is kind of counter to what a lot of people would ever actually say. But yeah, I think it is for everyone at some point in their life. Right. But it's not always right away, and that's perfectly okay.

Dan Korus: Mm-hmm.

Brent Bode: But when you are starting to look, if you are in a place where you're able to explore, you don't feel place bound by where you are, have fun looking for something. There are so many options out there. There's so many cool universities. The amount of times I've gone to other college campuses and been like, wow, my life could have been so different. my husband hates when I do that. He's like, But then you wouldn't have been here and we wouldn't have met and we wouldn't be doing this, you know.

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: But to have that opportunity It is what happened to my mom. She was walking one of my sisters around

Dan Korus: Yeah.

Brent Bode: the college campus that she ended up choosing. And it's what made her want to go back and get her masters. the power of the visit really is strong. And so I think just enjoy the ride of finding what is out there, picking something that you feel passionate about, somewhere you feel passionate about, somewhere you feel like you can call it home, or will one day want to look back and call it home. I think is a really It's just a great part of all of it. for as stressful as it can be. Let it also be fun, 'cause that is what's gonna make you have a good time.

Dan Korus: Awesome. Brent, I wanna say thank you, man. We did it. I think a big part of who I am today is my college experience. good mentors.

Brent Bode: Well,

Dan Korus: I don't think people know this, but that was one of my first adult interviews, like out of the house. yeah. And I I missed it. Yeah, great. I I had to I had to message Joe Gold and and be like, Hey, that wasn't my bad. Can we please do tomorrow? And If I wasn't given that second chance, I don't yeah, I wouldn't have been I wouldn't have worked in missions, I wouldn't have gotten to learn from you or the

Brent Bode: But I was sick and I notified ahead of time. I

Dan Korus: I didn't I didn't have a good excuse. I forgot. I was like I like it taught me to like look at my fucking email. So

Brent Bode: Yeah.

Dan Korus: I just I really appreciate your mentorship and advice. And I think in the moment I didn't have as much of like an appreciation for how big of a a heart you have. That sounds like so fuck up to say. Like but I think just now, like I think you know, as an adult and a manager, yeah just really appreciate who you are and how much you care and I'm really glad. You're still doing what you're doing. I don't think it's lame at all that you've spent, you know, thirteen years at the university. I think it's fucking beautiful and I don't think of anyone who could do it better than you are. So I just I really appreciate

Brent Bode: Crazy. Yeah, feels crazy after all these years. But it is it's such a fun place to be.

Dan Korus: I really appreciate you and and also just for taking two hours to sit down with me and talk about my special interests. So

Brent Bode: Yeah. Well I'm very proud of of the life you've built and getting to see where all the the tour guides get to go afterwards is so fun and every time I'm in the VU your face in that quote is still on the goddamn wall. I'm like, there he is